Observer Article: "Defunct WonderCafe site is reborn"

Welcome to Wondercafe2!

A community where we discuss, share, and have some fun together. Join today and become a part of it!

Register Log in
@Pinga I have re-read @chansen 's post above again. He may very well believe the entire structure of the church is incompetent. What I read there though was his comments that they have mishandled the money bequeathed to them and have put the cart before the horse by doing the comprehensive review when they did. He also said they are incompetent at social media. This is what I agree with.

There are most certainly some very competent professionals in the UCCAN. I have a lot of respect for many people. I also agree with @revjohn's assessment above. This UCCan is a complicated creature isn't it. How can a large organization based in Toronto be in touch with what is happening in the far reaches of this church. Do the folks in TO really truly get Hillside UC in Fort Nelson? Do they know it exists? Do they care? When I listened to several congregations in the Comp Review one message I heard was that the big congregations should be fed and the smaller ones left to die. I am well aware of the financial issues the church is facing. That being said, is our purpose to raise money or something else?

WC was a great opportunity to do ministry in a different direction. It is good that they notice WC2 and write about it in the Observer. It is good too that WC2 is independent of the organization.

I'm thinking this is an example of how large organizations end up putting more energy into self-preservation than into its stated purpose.

Pinga, I don't understand why criticism of the UCCan bothers you so much. No organization should be above critique.
 
KayTheCurler said:
Will there be the same response from Americans now the dirt is being revealed about the torturing they have been doing do you think? Sounds to me like they went after Germany following WW2 claimingthe execution of war crimes contrary to the Geneva Convention and are now involved in the same 'stuff'. Personally, I would like to see those responsible charged and brought before an international court.
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree.

It was due mainly to pressure from the American occupiers that defeated Nazi-Germany was thoroughly denazified. Now is their time to denazify themselves.
 
I visited Dachau in 2013. We were told that the camp had been made into a memorial in order to make amends and to prevent those atrocities from happening again. There were groups of high school students there on tours when we were there. I understand this was mandatory for them.
 
P;ease don't fight. I don't want to see WC2 go down the tubes because of infighting among us.
I agree with both Chansen and Pinga but I don't think the money was spent wisely and now it is gone -poof'
Emerging spirit in the end accomplished nothing. but US
All that money gone and here is what is left - a dedicated bunch on WC2 who see a need and hope we are filling it.
discussion for many different religions or non, welcoming of strangers, support for those who are searching answers
' and care for those who have cried out.
 
chansen said:
The idea that people like Hermann should apologize for WW2 is as ludicrous as the concept of original sin. I only tried to lighten the thread with war humour.
Click to expand...

Well, chansen, I don't think it is ludicrous.

I think there is a collective responsibility when collective crimes were committed and one is or was a member of the collective that committed the crime.

To me, and to many other Germans of the post-war generation, to shoulder part of the blame for the atrocities committed by the German Third Reich, and to apologize, repent, and make appropriate restitution--as much as this is possible--was the only way to come clean. Postwar Germany was so determined to prevent such collective evil from ever happening again that it became the driving force behind uniting Europe into a solid union and keeping it unified. And, along with other member states of the European Union, mainly the Scandinavian countries, push for a genuine global union.

Thus, great collective evil lead to great collective good. But, in order for such a transition to happen, there had to be a collective admittance of past wrongdoings, followed a genuine attempt to repent.



When they said, repent! repent!,
I wonder what they meant?

-Leonard Cohen
 
Mistakes are made, by church and state, by people, institutions, and corporations. But mistakes is what we learn from.

If we deny past mistakes, then won't learn from them, and things will never get better.
 
Germany did face the wrongs it had allowed (though I suspect that most citizens didn't know for quite some time how bad the situation was). I have Brit friends who feel a sense of responsibility for the rabid colonialisation that country did many years ago - but no real amends.
Here in Canada a small minority feel some responsibility for the way the original occupants of this country have been treated. It seems to be the government that lead the continuance of this tendency to treat them most unfairly - less money for their education, complicated systems to navigate, poor treatment by the police in some areas, lack of action on abuse - it seems endless. Words of apology were used - too bad they haven't been acting on.
 
Yes, Kay, words of apology don't mean much if not followed by the appropriate action.

Actually, any heart-felt apology--if it is truly heart-felt--should be followed up with the appropriate action.

And no, most Germans didn't know the full extent of Nazi atrocities until sometime after the end of the war. But the atrocities began with the illegal arrests of ethnic Jews throughout the German sphere of influence--and this was public knowledge, and should have raised alarm bells throughout Germany and Europe!


Without having done anything wrong, Joseph K. was one day arrested, is the opening line to Franz Kafka's The Trial.

Throughout the book it is never clear what Joseph K. is on trial for, but the unspoken implication is that his Jewishness is on trial; that it is a crime to be a Jew. This is gross racism! But, unfortunately, such racism was not confined to Germany alone.

The condemned are attractive to women, Joseph K's advocate said in the book. By this Franz Kafka may have meant to say that women, in general, are more compassionate than men. Unfortunately, women did not have much of a political voice in Nazi Germany. In present day Germany they do!
 
It appears to me that the hopes of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission have yet to come to fruition. We can only pray that we, as a culture, can move from sharing truths to beginning the really hard work of reconciliation and that would mean "feet on the ground" action to move to right relationship with our aboriginal neighbours, from fair funding systems for their school and healthcare systems, to solid land treaty rights recognitions.
 
Hi Bette:

For Truth and Reconciliation to work, there has to be an admission of wrongdoing, a genuine, heartfelt apology, followed by a thorough analysis what was done wrong and how to remedy it, followed by the appropriate remedial action.

We cannot undo the wrongs of the past, but we surely can sit down with our aboriginal sisters and brothers to right these wrongs as much as possible. And, in order for this to work well, it has to be the collective will of the Canadian people, not just our provincial and federal governments.

The United Church has done a lot in this regard. I was present at a reconciliation session between the United Church and our local Okanagan Westside Reserve, and this was duly acknowledged by our local aboriginal leaders. I also organized a one-day workshop on aboriginal culture at our wondercafe-live!, and it was well attended and well received. Actually, this was the only time we had a full house at one of our wondercafe-live! events. But more could and should be done in this regard.

Our local municipal politicians say they don't want to become involved in aboriginal land claims because this is a provincial and federal responsibility. I think they are wrong; it is the collective responsibility of all Canadians, and it would not hurt if we and our municipal politicians endorsed aboriginal land claims.

The natives are friendly; they are not going to evict us.;)
 
crazyheart said:
P;ease don't fight.
Click to expand...

I see disagreement. I'm sure to the more delicate among us it looks like a fight.

crazyheart said:
I don't want to see WC2 go down the tubes because of infighting among us.
Click to expand...

A little early to be worried about the sky falling I think.

crazyheart said:
I agree with both Chansen and Pinga but I don't think the money was spent wisely and now it is gone -poof'
Emerging spirit in the end accomplished nothing. but US
Click to expand...

If the portion of the Morrison bequest was misspent on the Emerging Spirit Campaign it is only because folk at the General Council level who proposed and put the Emerging Spirit Campaign together made a colossal mistake in trusting that the lower courts were really interested in programs that would make a difference for congregations.

What congregations really, really, really want is somebody to solve all of their problems without changing a single thing.

Emerging Spirit didn't offer that.

What Emerging Spirit offered congregations was an opportunity to understand the world on their doorstep so that when they went out into it they would be prepared to meet people in it.

In response the Church said in a great loud voice, "What? We have to do this ourselves? Screw that!"

There were other logistical flaws to the program but the biggest flaw, at least as far as the UCCAN rank and file is concerned is that Emerging Spirit wasn't magic and required individual members to do something other than sit on their butts in their reserved pew waiting for people to flock to them.

The good news is that there are ministry units within the UCCAN that are willing to provide tools to congregations to help them accomplish something other than stagnation. They aren't broadcasting those tools because of how Emerging Spirit was received. They appear to have adopted a position where only the truly desperate and ready to try anything will get help because those are the people who actually ask for help instead of moan and whine about nobody doing anything.

WonderCafe.ca was part of the process where we in the UCCAN would be able to see that the world outside our rose-coloured, stained glass windows wasn't so scary or difficult to connect with. It was never flush with UCCAN folk because apparently we can't be bothered to even try a chat room in an attempt to gain social skills useful in dialogue with people who are very different from what we are. Which reflects how change averse we are as a people and why change will only happen for our denomination when it becomes to painful to remain as we have become.

If half of our congregations showed a fraction of the fire Pinga and chansen are managing in a discussion group dust-up we look alive enough to be reasonably attractive.
 
Northwind, i am in total agreement that an organization can be critiqued by its peers and customers.

I find it offensive when an individual is targeted as incompetent by those unaware of the role, the objectives and their powers and priorities.

I also find it nonsensical to define an organization incompetent in something which they are light years ahead of other similar orgs

So, if you want to get in on chansen's personal, if veiled, attacks then go for it. I won't stand bye and watch it happen

If you want to explore root cause of organizations perceived success and failures, i am happy to so.
 
Pinga said:
Northwind, i am in total agreement that an organization can be critiqued by its peers and customers.
Click to expand...

So, only some people can critique an organization?


So, if you want to get in on chansen's personal, if veiled, attacks then go for it. I won't stand bye and watch it happen
Click to expand...

So, because I have agreed with @chansen I'm part of an attack? That's offensive to me.

If you want to explore root cause of organizations perceived success and failures, i am happy to so.
Click to expand...

What do you suggest are root causes?


I have seen several people criticize the UCCan and have seen you say you're not in the mood for that. Some of those people have been "customers" or "peers" of the UCCan. Often and outsider has very valuable information to offer, even an outsider's with a perceived personal agenda.

I've said all I will say as I don't want to derail further.
 
crazyheart said:
P;ease don't fight. I don't want to see WC2 go down the tubes because of infighting among us.
I agree with both Chansen and Pinga but I don't think the money was spent wisely and now it is gone -poof'
Emerging spirit in the end accomplished nothing. but US
All that money gone and here is what is left - a dedicated bunch on WC2 who see a need and hope we are filling it.
discussion for many different religions or non, welcoming of strangers, support for those who are searching answers
' and care for those who have cried out.
Click to expand...
And that is exactly part of what I am saying. We can provide that, and do it better than the United Church because we're better at running an online community. We are not at anyone's whim. We are not subject to the reacting without thinking that John was talking about. I'm not saying we're perfect, but we'd have to struggle to be worse.

And most importantly, we can say these things without fear that someone is going to delete stuff because someone, somewhere, didn't like it.



Pinga said:
Northwind, i am in total agreement that an organization can be critiqued by its peers and customers.

I find it offensive when an individual is targeted as incompetent by those unaware of the role, the objectives and their powers and priorities.

I also find it nonsensical to define an organization incompetent in something which they are light years ahead of other similar orgs

So, if you want to get in on chansen's personal, if veiled, attacks then go for it. I won't stand bye and watch it happen

If you want to explore root cause of organizations perceived success and failures, i am happy to so.
Click to expand...
They aren't "light years ahead" - they did something no other church has done, not because they are advanced, but because they couldn't see the results would be out of their control and not to their liking. No other church wants an open discussion forum, and what the UCCan realized is that they don't, either.

So yes, the upper decision making at the UCCan was extremely short-sighted and was wearing rose-coloured glasses when WC1 was opened. But day-to-day social media operations screwed up pretty regularly, too, trying to have an open forum, but also cracking down with knee-jerk reactions and deciding they didn't need to explain their actions to anyone. No one there admits to mistakes. They think they can do no wrong, and they have you as a defender.

Meanwhile, many people here at WC2, and at the Facebook group, agree largely with what I'm saying. First, I really appreciate those who set aside their theological differences with me when they realize they agree with my arguments here. That means a lot to me. It is good that we can even have this discussion, now I know what the ground rules are. I never should have apologized for airing a grievance here in the first place, because this is the perfect spot to discuss how the United Church has a disaster of an online presence, can not effectively moderate discussion by making emotional decisions they refuse to justify, and talk openly about ways to fix it without being banned or having your comments deleted.
 
The united church of canada did not shut down wondercafe because it was open. It was designed to be open and is part of the basis of the intent of the site and program.

No matter how many times you bleat that line it doesn't become true.
 
Northwind, i regularly do not feel like playing pr. Jae's games re the UCCan. If you see that as me not being critical of the denomination you don't know me very well.
 
Pinga said:
The united church of canada did not shut down wondercafe because it was open. It was designed to be open and is part of the basis of the intent of the site and program.

No matter how many times you bleat that line it doesn't become true.
Click to expand...

And yet it wasn't open. Conservative evangelicals for example - which is what I was at the time - we're not treated fairly by the admins despite some other regs routinely insulting and mocking us as "fundies."
 
Chansen, your arguments are regularly personal attacks and emotional. You throw around words like incompetence and denigrate individuals. You blame the messenger and presume the messenger is the decision makers and that you have all the facts.

I do not see you as rational or showing your capabilities for critical thinking in this area. You are emotional.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top