Observer Article: "Defunct WonderCafe site is reborn"

Welcome to Wondercafe2!

A community where we discuss, share, and have some fun together. Join today and become a part of it!

Register Log in
Crazyheart -- are you aware of the $$ that it would have cost to get a national advertisizing campaign of the kind that the wondercafe ads created?
Minimum 1million, but 5-10mil would be reasonable.

I'm curious, what do you define as a failure?

I agree, it was an ambitious project for the spend available from the fund.
There were some highs, in fact, some early probably unexpeced successes...
 
It seems to me over the years, the United Church has had some innovated ideas. They implement them and when they were going well, they drop them like a hot potato and then jump to something else. The ads were wonderful and generated many discussions. But then poof they were gone. The same with the videos , where are they? Who has followed through and made good use of Emergent spirit? If you ask congregants, they don't know what it is.

Things are a failure if good things are not generated out of other good things.
 
Crazyheart I sense you expect someone other than the individuals, the congregations, the presbyeryies, the ministers, the conferences to have followed suit?

One of the blessings and curses of the United Church of Canada is free will.
There was a program that was funded, there were sessions, there were actions, there were media events, there was assistance to launch your own event, there was solid material for congregations...and yet.....you say nothing good was generated.

I would say "emerging spirit" was like the parable of the mustard seeds.

Would i have launched a program in this manner, probably not; however, I also would not work for the church, nor would i work for a non-hierarchical organization. I find that in such organizations you often have programs which don't have the impetus to follow-through at all levels and sustain.
 
Just having dun with ya. Was also hoping someone would play with the "Reich" line.
 
Hi chansen:

If you want an apology for the Reich, you can have it from me. We Germans feel collectively responsible for the atrocities committed by the Third Reich. We carry our individual portion of the collective cultural shame and guilt, admit to our wrongdoings, apologize to everyone who was hurt by the Reich, repent and undertake to make genuine amends. No weasel words; no weaseling out of this one!

Wouldn't it be nice if every empire and institution who violated others did the same?
 
Will there be the same response from Americans now the dirt is being revealed about the torturing they have been doing do you think? Sounds to me like they went after Germany following WW2 claimingthe execution of war crimes contrary to the Geneva Convention and are now involved in the same 'stuff'. Personally, I would like to see those responsible charged and brought before an international court.
 
Hermann said:
Hi chansen:

If you want an apology for the Reich, you can have it from me. We Germans feel collectively responsible for the atrocities committed by the Third Reich. We carry our individual portion of the collective cultural shame and guilt, admit to our wrongdoings, apologize to everyone who was hurt by the Reich, repent and undertake to make genuine amends. No weasel words; no weaseling out of this one!

Wouldn't it be nice if every empire and institution who violated others did the same?
Click to expand...

You're the first German I ever heard such an apology from.
 
The idea that people like Hermann should apologize for WW2 is as ludicrous as the concept of original sin. I only tried to lighten the thread with war humour.
 
chansen said:
The idea that people like Hermann should apologize for WW2 is as ludicrous as the concept of original sin. I only tried to lighten the thread with war humour.
Click to expand...

I didn't say that he should or shouldn't apologize. I merely observed that he's the first I've heard to do so.
 
Pinga said:
Crazyheart -- are you aware of the $$ that it would have cost to get a national advertisizing campaign of the kind that the wondercafe ads created?
Minimum 1million, but 5-10mil would be reasonable.

I'm curious, what do you define as a failure?

I agree, it was an ambitious project for the spend available from the fund.
There were some highs, in fact, some early probably unexpeced successes...
Click to expand...
I already hate myself for replying late to this, but apparently that isn't going to stop me.

There was no evident plan with Emerging Spirit and Wondercafe. I wasn't here at the start, but by reading old posts, the original ads seemed to attract religious nutcases who were convinced of the sinfulness of many things the UCCan was supportive of, and turned the early forum into much more of a bloodbath than when I arrived.

Comments have been made that anyone who was impressed by the ads and the comments of UCCan members here, did not find the same attitudes at their local United Church. The ads may have been avant-garde, but the denomination was found to be passé.

Further, whether they wanted to or not, they created a community at Wondercafe.ca, and then didn't know what to do with the monster they created when expenses outstripped funding before interest died. So they just pulled the plug. They never approached us about taking it over, or anything of the sort. They did not give us the archive of posts. They would not let us have the domain, even though, again, they seem to have no plan for it.

Emerging Spirit appears to have only solved the problem of, "We have a pile of money, how can we spend it?" I, and others do not see much of a legacy for that money, except getting us together, and agreeing not to sue us for calling this place "Wondercafe2". Gee, thanks.

To me, and I think to a lot of people, you fix the inside of the store before you invite people to come in the door. The church is supposedly now nearing the end of three or four incredibly prolonged years of Comprehensive Review discussion. That length alone shows how broken things are, but there is no confidence out there that anything good will come of the process. But something like this should have come before Emerging Spirit. Now the Emerging Spirit money is gone, the total financial situation is worse, the community they started showed how the job could have been done better by volunteers for a fraction of the cost, and there is little trust in the people running the show in head office. And, I think, rightly so.

And then there are the examples of unjustified and seemingly unjustifiable content moderation decisions made by the UCCan, which undermine the communities they try to create. They do not think they have to answer to any decision they make, and they carry a "I don't owe you anything" attitude. And it's not just me saying that over the years. They do not understand what an online community is, and they do not "get" social media. That this community has a place to meet and discuss is not on the UCCan at all. They tried to kill it, and even if they told us we were not allowed to use the "Wondercafe2" name, I would have voted to use it anyway. What were they going to do, spend more church dollars they do not have suing the three of us for using a derivative of the community name to continue a non-profit website? There would have been a mutiny in the UCCan.

The United Church of Canada is completely inept at social media. They squandered the bequeathment, they can't make a decent website even when the do have a pile of money to throw at it, and they have not demonstrated any ability to interact with online communities other than to serve as a police presence and overreact to content flags.

I like this community, even though I often don't agree with many people here. I enjoy the banter and the debate, and the relationships forged. I am beyond relieved that the United Church does not have control of this website, and I will always argue vehemently against any United Church of Canada staff member having any control over this website or its content, because they have shown themselves to be incompetent at anything to do with the Internet, and contemptuous toward the online communities they unwittingly manage to create.
 
Chansen, I disagree with you on so many spots on the above post it is hard to decide where to start.

What you saw as an inappropriate spend was deemed the right action, by General Council, the leadership of the whole church.
When the funding was cut, it was the GC that decided to not extend, not the staff of the church.

What you saw as ineptitude, brought us here.

What you see as inappropriate moderation, allowed WonderCafe to continue in a way that allowed many voices to participate, and dealt with everything from suicides to false persona, with decisive actions when required and in most cases a gentle hand.

In particular, I find your remarks regarding the staff of the United Church of Canada insulting to those who did the work.

I'm getting rather flipping tired of it. I get you don't see all the levels or actions.
I get that you were not a part of the group that engaged with the moderators on complex items in the original WonderCafe.

I get you have a bone to pick, but, for me, it is not only boring, but insulting.

chansen said:
I already hate myself for replying late to this, but apparently that isn't going to stop me.

There was no evident plan with Emerging Spirit and Wondercafe. I wasn't here at the start, but by reading old posts, the original ads seemed to attract religious nutcases who were convinced of the sinfulness of many things the UCCan was supportive of, and turned the early forum into much more of a bloodbath than when I arrived.

Comments have been made that anyone who was impressed by the ads and the comments of UCCan members here, did not find the same attitudes at their local United Church. The ads may have been avant-garde, but the denomination was found to be passé.

Further, whether they wanted to or not, they created a community at Wondercafe.ca, and then didn't know what to do with the monster they created when expenses outstripped funding before interest died. So they just pulled the plug. They never approached us about taking it over, or anything of the sort. They did not give us the archive of posts. They would not let us have the domain, even though, again, they seem to have no plan for it.

Emerging Spirit appears to have only solved the problem of, "We have a pile of money, how can we spend it?" I, and others do not see much of a legacy for that money, except getting us together, and agreeing not to sue us for calling this place "Wondercafe2". Gee, thanks.

To me, and I think to a lot of people, you fix the inside of the store before you invite people to come in the door. The church is supposedly now nearing the end of three or four incredibly prolonged years of Comprehensive Review discussion. That length alone shows how broken things are, but there is no confidence out there that anything good will come of the process. But something like this should have come before Emerging Spirit. Now the Emerging Spirit money is gone, the total financial situation is worse, the community they started showed how the job could have been done better by volunteers for a fraction of the cost, and there is little trust in the people running the show in head office. And, I think, rightly so.

And then there are the examples of unjustified and seemingly unjustifiable content moderation decisions made by the UCCan, which undermine the communities they try to create. They do not think they have to answer to any decision they make, and they carry a "I don't owe you anything" attitude. And it's not just me saying that over the years. They do not understand what an online community is, and they do not "get" social media. That this community has a place to meet and discuss is not on the UCCan at all. They tried to kill it, and even if they told us we were not allowed to use the "Wondercafe2" name, I would have voted to use it anyway. What were they going to do, spend more church dollars they do not have suing the three of us for using a derivative of the community name to continue a non-profit website? There would have been a mutiny in the UCCan.

The United Church of Canada is completely inept at social media. They squandered the bequeathment, they can't make a decent website even when the do have a pile of money to throw at it, and they have not demonstrated any ability to interact with online communities other than to serve as a police presence and overreact to content flags.

I like this community, even though I often don't agree with many people here. I enjoy the banter and the debate, and the relationships forged. I am beyond relieved that the United Church does not have control of this website, and I will always argue vehemently against any United Church of Canada staff member having any control over this website or its content, because they have shown themselves to be incompetent at anything to do with the Internet, and contemptuous toward the online communities they unwittingly manage to create.
Click to expand...
 
I'm not in the mood. I do find it insulting. Your lack of awareness of the depth of the program and the work that occurred, fine, you don' get it. You weren't involved. You take pot shots about the form of moderation, when the first time there was a flipping issue, it was about something you posted, and we ended up having to do the same style of moderation.

You have a really small window into the world or the program, and yet quite free to write off an entire department and program.

I have worked in places, where business people got the same blind spots on IT. I have seen the consequences of their blind spots. They are pretty ugly.
 
And I see the side of it you don't see - the complete contempt and disregard for even serious content because someone in the church experienced a degree of butthurt.

But a lot of it is there for all to see, that you still fail to acknowledge. They can not create a decent website. It has yet to happen. They could have facilitated a handoff of at least the domain name, but they simply refused to do that, even though they have no obvious use for it.

I have zero use for them, and if they feel insulted by my words, I can live with that. I can only imagine their frustration when they instinctively reach for the "Delete post" and "Ban user" buttons, and they are not there, because they do not control this place.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top