Obadiah

[Mendalla]

Obadiah is a challenge, which is liikely why few people even know that the book exists.

The challenging books are, in some ways, the most important ones, though. If The Bible, the whole Bible, is indeed the "Word of God" (whatever you mean by that) then all of the content needs to be engaged with in some way, even if that results in rejecting it or developing a rather different understanding of it than it would have had in historical context.

 

[Waterfall]

The challenging books are, in some ways, the most important ones, though. If The Bible, the whole Bible, is indeed the "Word of God" (whatever you mean by that) then all of the content needs to be engaged with in some way, even if that results in rejecting it or developing a rather different understanding of it than it would have had in historical context.

So is there a future prophesy we should be paying attention to?

 

[Mendalla]

So is there a future prophesy we should be paying attention to?

I don't think so. I find the simplest reading for most of the prophetic books is found in looking at their context, not trying to shoehorn them into current or future events. So any contemporary message would be a general one (God will protect his people or whatever) arising from understanding the story in that context. After all, for the ancient Semitic people, "prophets" were generally divine messengers and foretelling the future was just one of the ways they did that gig. And, to my eye, most of those "prophecies" have happened. Jesus foretelling the Fall of Jerusalem is referring to 70CE, not something still to come (in fact, it was probably written into his teaching post-70CE but that's another discussion).

In this case, you have Obadiah (whoever that was) in the exilic period foretelling that one day God will smite his people's foes and free them. Which did happen when the Persians took out Babylon and sent the exiles home. So even if it was a "future prophecy", that prophecy has arguably been fulfilled. More likely, though, it was looking back at a past time when God's enemies were well and truly smitten (Edom vs. Judah) and offering that as a hopeful message to the exiles. No foretelling, just encouragement that God is still with them and is will deal with their enemies.

This does not, however, present a universal deity like Christians see in God, but very much a tribal one who is fiercely protective of HIS tribe. Which is why a book like this is a challenge in a 21st century Christian, especially a progressive Christian, context. Who is the tribe today? If "the tribe" is the faithful, does that mean God sees non-Christians as "Edom" and as enemies? Because Obadiah doesn't talk about converting, he talks about destruction. And I don't see that as the message of Jesus or of Christianity in general.

 

[Waterfall]

I don't think so. I find the simplest reading for most of the prophetic books is found in looking at their context, not trying to shoehorn them into current or future events. So any contemporary message would be a general one (God will protect his people or whatever) arising from understanding the story in that context. After all, for the ancient Semitic people, "prophets" were generally divine messengers and foretelling the future was just one of the ways they did that gig. And, to my eye, most of those "prophecies" have happened. Jesus foretelling the Fall of Jerusalem is referring to 70CE, not something still to come (in fact, it was probably written into his teaching post-70CE but that's another discussion).

Should all nations still not oppose Israel or was that an instruction only for Edom?

 

[Mendalla]

Should all nations still not oppose Israel or was that an instruction only for Edom?

Depends on what you mean by "oppose Israel". In a secular world. no one can claim divine providence and no one is obligated to take them seriously if they do. So the modern state of Israel enjoys no such divine protection IMHO.

That said, "Israel" in Obadiah's context does not mean a modern state, but the people we call "Jews". And anti-Semitism is, IMHO, a bad thing so I would argue that while we can certainly argue for or against the actions of the modern state or even of particular Jews (e.g. certain members of the Kushner family), not "opposing Israel" in the sense of not targetting Jews for being Jews and upholding their right to practice their faith and culture is good advice in any age. Don't need a prophecy of doom to think that, though. In UU'ism, that's just derived from the principles, not some 2500 year-old prophet.

In fact, if humanity needs fear and prophecies of doom to treat other humans with proper dignity and respect, we are probably right and truly f-d.

 

[Waterfall]

Depends on what you mean by "oppose Israel". In a secular world. no one can claim divine providence and no one is obligated to take them seriously if they do. So the modern state of Israel enjoys no such divine protection IMHO.

That said, "Israel" in Obadiah's context does not mean a modern state, but the people we call "Jews". And anti-Semitism is, IMHO, a bad thing so I would argue that while we can certainly argue for or against the actions of the modern state or even of particular Jews (e.g. certain members of the Kushner family), not "opposing Israel" in the sense of not targetting Jews for being Jews and upholding their right to practice their faith and culture is good advice in any age. Don't need a prophecy of doom to think that, though. In UU'ism, that's just derived from the principles, not some 2500 year-old prophet.

In fact, if humanity needs fear and prophecies of doom to treat other humans with proper dignity and respect, we are probably right and truly f-d.

Well I was curious if this was part of the reason most Christian nations support Israel over Palestine.

 

[Mendalla]

Well I was curious if this was part of the reason most Christian nations support Israel over Palestine.

Never heard Obadiah specifically cited. Mostly Daniel and Revelation, referring to the rebuilding of the temple as a precursor to the End Times and Second Coming.

And, frankly, that support is mostly politics. Israel gave the West an ally in a region that was not exactly friendly to them after the end of colonialism there. Admittedly, creating Israel caused some of that, but there were other factors as well, including the lingering legacy of the Crusades and general Western hatred of Islam. So in the end, aside from the some branches of fundamentalist Christianity, I think the West's support of Israel is more political than religious, though US governments have been more than happy to use the "prophecy" element to prop up that support among certain segments of society.

 

[unsafe]

The Land of Israel is very important to God in the last days -----and there are grave warnings for anyone involved in separating the land of Israel and scattering the Jewish people -------

Joel 3 NIV ---read the chapter ----
Bible Gateway passage: Joel 3 - New International Version

The Nations Judged​

3 [a]“In those days and at that time,
when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will gather all nations
and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat.[b]
There I will put them on trial
for what they did to my inheritance, my people Israel,
because they scattered my people among the nations
and divided up my land.
3 They cast lots for my people
and traded boys for prostitutes;
they sold girls for wine to drink.

Blessings for God’s People​

17 “Then you will know that I, the Lord your God,
dwell in Zion, my holy hill.
Jerusalem will be holy;
never again will foreigners invade her.
18 “In that day the mountains will drip new wine,
and the hills will flow with milk;
all the ravines of Judah will run with water.
A fountain will flow out of the Lord’s house
and will water the valley of acacias.[d]
19 But Egypt will be desolate,
Edom a desert waste,
because of violence done to the people of Judah,
in whose land they shed innocent blood.
20 Judah will be inhabited forever
and Jerusalem through all generations.
21 Shall I leave their innocent blood unavenged?
No, I will not.”
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Good read on this subject here for anyone interested ------

June 24, 2011 By joelcrosenberg in Epicenter

The Bible is crystal clear: the Lord Almighty will judge all nations who divide the Land of Israel.

A MESSAGE OF WARNING TO THE NATIONS: DO NOT DIVIDE THE LAND OF ISRAEL - Understanding the Book of Joel, Part 5 - Joel C. Rosenberg's Blog

The Bible is crystal clear: the Lord Almighty will judge all nations who divide the Land of Israel. In Joel 3:2, the Lord says: “I will gather all the nations and bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat. Then I will enter into judgment with them there on behalf of My people and My […]

flashtrafficblog.epicentermedia.net

 

[Redbaron]

Never heard Obadiah specifically cited. Mostly Daniel and Revelation, referring to the rebuilding of the temple as a precursor to the End Times and Second Coming.

And, frankly, that support is mostly politics. Israel gave the West an ally in a region that was not exactly friendly to them after the end of colonialism there. Admittedly, creating Israel caused some of that, but there were other factors as well, including the lingering legacy of the Crusades and general Western hatred of Islam. So in the end, aside from the some branches of fundamentalist Christianity, I think the West's support of Israel is more political than religious, though US governments have been more than happy to use the "prophecy" element to prop up that support among certain segments of society.

Yes, I would agree that most such support is politically motivated, rather than the result of any deep spiritual experience. A few nice words from a few conveniently-phrased prophecies just assist in confirming pre-existing politics.

To me, Obadiah seems to be a biblical expression of karma-- You have done this in the past; in the future, you will get your comeuppance, but good.

 

[Waterfall]

Yes, I would agree that most such support is politically motivated, rather than the result of any deep spiritual experience. A few nice words from a few conveniently-phrased prophecies just assist in confirming pre-existing politics.

To me, Obadiah seems to be a biblical expression of karma-- You have done this in the past; in the future, you will get your comeuppance, but good.

Mixing politics with religions is common practice IMO.

 

[Mendalla]

To me, Obadiah seems to be a biblical expression of karma-- You have done this in the past; in the future, you will get your comeuppance, but good.

I am not a total believer in karma, at least not as some kind of supernatural "fate" or "destiny", but I do see it in terms of what goes around comes around. Just look at Afghanistan. For over a century, it has just been a revolving door with each regimes coming in by force and going out by force.

Mixing politics with religions is common practice IMO.

And inevitably so, I think. After all, if our values are shaped by faith, and we govern or vote based on our values, then faith can't help but enter the equation. The problem I see with how religion is used in the US (and sometimes here) is that there is no faith involved, just a cynical pushing off the right buttons to get people on your side. Look at Trump. I have never seen any evidence that he is the slightest bit religious but he pushed those buttons perfectly, esp. by putting Pence, who is quite actively and openly religious, at his side.

 

[jimkenney12]

The Israelites were militaristic and vengeful. I believe there is a story in Judges about one clan feeling wronged by another clan and killing many or most of the members of that clan. As enemies of Afghanistan keep learning, Afghans may be defeated in a battle, bit their enemies almost always end up losers. Obadiah describes what eventually will happen to those who attack the Jewish people.

 

[BetteTheRed]

Obadiah describes what eventually will happen to those who attack the Jewish people.

Hmmm...seems less likely after the Holocaust. All of Western Christian Culture was quite complicit in that event, and it seems to have slid off its collective back. We're just now coming to terms with the residential school tragedy. Has Canada ever apologized for turning away Jewish refugees during WW2?

 

[jimkenney12]

At the time of Obadiah, the war like nature of the Israelites provided a high risk of revenge. The Romans were even more warlike and crushed the Jewish people. For most of the last 2000 years, they have chosen other strategies to survive.

 

[Luce NDs]

Mixing politics with religions is common practice IMO.

This is normal church action as some powers attempt to be the best one! It is a struggle that develops into conflict if without relaxation theory and opposite cranking ... reverse thread?

 

[Luce NDs]

Is the organ of thought and reason weird because of the fact that it may resemble a transparent prince ... clearly so as no one has observed that essence except when drifting of in various trans like states! Such is hidden away as sacred on the veil of boney skulls ... hard tack?

If one is obsessive about positives and disposes of the negatives and less folk ... what do we find over the horizon as toxic to what we felt comfortable with? It is said that James Hilton felt this way in the Jungian paths ... and thus Lost Horizon! It revealed hidden peaks and vales ... runnels where icon and Semite seized up ... put down roots while vegetating ... out of sight!

Much vegetation collects light in the dais and expands at night ... like abstracts! Never completely trash the abstract ... it is like a handout ... a gift! It denied does it wither as it ghost? Mire essence as a dust storm ...

 

[revjohn]

Apparently, there were hundreds of prophets scattered through Israel's history. None of them have their own book recorded in scripture so the length of the book isn't any criterion for its inclusion.

And to be fair this is, according to the text one vision of one prophet rather than the entire corpus of the same.

Obadiah is sharing a vision and the vision uses the images of Esau and Jacob. Several times the text, Jacob I have loved and Esau I have hated appear throughout the scriptures so that forms background.

Reading the complaints against Esau/Edom it seems that when Jacob/Israel was being invaded Esau/Edom not only did not come to the rescue they seemed to be delighted by Jacob/Israel's misfortunes.

A lot of the recorded prophetic literature links the fall of the Northern and Southern Kingdoms to covenantal curses. None of their trouble would have happened had they repented. A lot of prophetic literature is also "fair warning" if either Kingdom turns away from certain behaviours God will turn away God's wrath. It is also in the prophetic writings that we hear about God blessing former enemy empires for being the tools he uses to teach some tough lessons and when those tools get to be a bit cruel towards God's captive people those blessings are revoked. So a judgment against Esau/Edom for not coming to the aid of Jacob/Israel doesn't really strike me as out of place or out of character.

How do Christians regard the text?

With the same monolithic agreement, we have on each and every single point of doctrine or interpretation.

This particular Christian, and therefore all other Christians, reads it as a window into the mind of God. God, apparently is unimpressed when we rejoice in the troubles falling upon others even when those troubles are self-inflicted. Apparently, the proper attitude to take would have been a compassionate one. Render aid even in a lost cause and mourn for those who are being disciplined. Be mindful that if God can be that rough with a chosen people how much rougher might God get on those not chosen?

How could such a message fail to confront Christian Triumphalism or even Christian Nationalism?

I mean, apart from no ears to hear.

 

[Luce NDs]

Who profits in the light ... considering much wealth is gathered in the dark according to underground sources like Attica Finch. This may be denied and misrepresented in some myths where the powers don't like investigators to look there ... so cover your donkey!

This may take one form in physical reality when in soulful virtue it may appear alternate and opposing ... sort of like subject and object in the complex literacy!

These may be devices not observed from those claiming to be above board when it may all be hype that caused dem the chaos ...

Suppose it'll come toem in the end? Light at the escape from the tunnel ... narrow science as piety? Reverence of small peaks ... heaps of little wasted folk and one heap of a winner? Him a roué Ide ... forming after self recognition and they can't believe what was formerly believed ... formation of shaman ... and the dark cloud like with Joe BLTZFX ... post presidential follow-up ... to corruptive leaders?

Thank god for folks that can't believe ... what is thinly disguised ... trans meditation ... thinking over what's in the other guise scheme! Conspiracy of the alternate ... often the duo cannot be gathered as emotions dislike intellect until emotional burnout! Sometimes encountered as chronic stress disorder and this too is disputed by many authority ... way tous much!

Alas touted by Louis Armstrong in the asking about sole ... by those that got none because of denial ... the bone that ties the ribbing in ... innate process? Ribbing and Reuben as discussed in some ancient books about the literary squeeze ... expect leakage to whet the psyche ... Jakob 'n well thing! the understanding is stacked against the emotionally adept ... comes later with sentience ... from well oriented Zen Ci's! They understand when the wholly thing is about to unravel ... tis a hairy empty spot ... reputed that there's one in NFLD!

Subject object chaos ... verbalism ... when one expects Dunams ... and when it is Dunne ... one might remain numinous .. a off spin of discussion and intercourse? There are innate consequences ... quantum in nature ... then there are the over cranked due to the ADs set up by the business world! Monstrous screw-up ... something to get over in time to enter abstract consciousness ... Post Job?

Consider the odds of permeation of an excessive emotional trait ... thus shot out of the heavenly state ... and back to work wegoes ... squirmy!

Is thinking process difficult given the path ... exposed to gravitas ... supposed to be taken seriously and with sole enmity ... with great feeling ... there are sacred words for that too (like sentient)! Brute people may not choose such paths and thus path heh! Painful interchange ... between disagreeable heaps ...

 

[Waterfall]

It is also in the prophetic writings that we hear about God blessing former enemy empires for being the tools he uses to teach some tough lessons and when those tools get to be a bit cruel towards God's captive people those blessings are revoked.

So who are the "tools" these days?

 

[Luce NDs]

Thinking ... a process about the question of what's oude there after the love 'n is over ...