BPotW Obadiah

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Mendalla

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About time we got these going again. The prophet Obadiah was, oddly for an Old Testament prophet, a man of relatively few words. His book is a whole 1 chapter of 21 (rather long) lines.


Reading through some commentaries, and the first thing that seems to come out in most is "who the (bleep) is Obadiah?" No one really seems to be able to equate the speaker/author of this book with anyone else by that name in the Bible. While the text talks about Edom being involved in the destruction of Jerusalem in an earlier period, there are commentators who suggest it is really about the fall of Jerusalem in 586CE with "Edom" as a stand-in for Babylon and other enemies of God's people. So really an early exilic book, though I did see some still trying to place it in the ninth century CE, closer to the events it seems to be referring to.

The words are directed to Edom, which had attacked Judah and Jerusalem. The Lord, through Obadiah, talks about taking the Edomites down and punishing them for their treatment of His people, and of restoring Israel. This could, based on the above, be a more general call against Israel's enemies rather than actually being about Edom being targetted.

Obadiah 1:15 said:
For the day of the Lord is near against all the nations.
As you have done, it shall be done to you;
your deeds shall return on your own head.

There is much focus on the pride and gloating of the Edomites.

Obadiah 1:12 said:
But you should not have gloated[c] over[d] your brother
on the day of his misfortune;
you should not have rejoiced over the people of Judah
on the day of their ruin;
you should not have boasted
on the day of distress.

So is this a condemnation of pride (as one evangelical commentator I found concludes)? Or more specifically a condemnation of Edom (or enemy nations in general) taking pride in its role in attacking Israel?

What is the general message here, if any? That the Lord shall defeat the enemies of God's chosen and restore them to power/glory? Or is there a more personal or modern message possible?
 

paradox3

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A quick read through of the text gave me a very militaristic feel, with God set on defeating God's enemies. A more personal or modern message might be possible but that seems like a stretch to me.

Maybe I will view it differently after spending more time with the text. The passage is not a familiar one.
 

Mendalla

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That's kind of my reading of it. It's biblical revenge porn, really. You smited my people so I am going to smite you kind of stuff.

So what does a preacher or modern theologian make of it, then? After all, it is in the Bible. Is the message here really, "Mess with my people and I will mess with you." And who are the people in a modern, Christian context? Still the "people of Israel" (in the sense of Jews, not necessarily the modern political entity of that name).

In short, is the presence of this book problematic or can it be reconciled with a Christian viewpoint?
 

Waterfall

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In short, is the presence of this book problematic or can it be reconciled with a Christian viewpoint?
Parallel verses in the New Testament that mention the Day of the Lord from Obidiah 1:15.

1 Thessalonians 5:2

2 Peter 3:10

Acts 2:20

1 Corinthians 5:5

2 Corinthians 1:14

There are also Old Testament scriptures that also refer to The Day of the Lord.

So what exactly is the future prediction of The Day of the Lord?

The only thing that seems clear is that it will be sudden, terrible and possibly the end of the world as we know it.
Is Gods revenge of his enemies a form of Gods love reserved only for those who worship him? Seems to contradict Grace and telling us to love our enemies.
 

unsafe

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Comment from above ---
Is the presence of this book problematic or can it be reconciled with a Christian viewpoint?

I say ---I think
It can be reconciled with a true Christian view point -----Pride is sin -----Esau who sold his birthright to Jacob is Edom ----

Genesis 36 CEB

6 Esau took his wives, his sons, his daughters, and everyone in his household, and his livestock, all of his animals, and all of the property he had acquired in the land of Canaan; and he moved away from the land of Canaan[b] and from his brother Jacob. 7 They had so many possessions that they couldn’t live together. The land where they lived as immigrants couldn’t support all of their livestock. 8 So Esau, that is, Edom, lived in the mountains of Seir.

9 These are the descendants of Esau, the ancestor of Edom, which lies in the mountains of Seir.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Edomites. were all of Esau's descendants named in Genesis 36

So were these Godly people ---not according to Obadiah’s account ----His account is focused on what happens when people's focus is drawing away from God and they live sinful lives in their pride and self righteousness ---God in His rightful judgement will judge their actions -----they can expect judgement not restoration at the end of life -----that is what is meant by the day of the Lord ----when God will manifest himself to judge the sin for all who refuse to rebuke sin in their lives ------

Remember we are in the Old Testament and God Dealt directly with the people Himself ---there was no mediator in the Old Testament -----God openly showed His Wrath on sinful people -----and He had every right to do so ----

Edom falls -----verse 3
3 Your proud heart has tricked you
you who live in the cracks of the rock,
whose dwelling is high above.
You who say in your heart,
“Who will bring me down to the ground?”

____________________________________________________________________________

Proverbs 16:18 says, “Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.”

People choose to sin -----it is a personal choice and so it is a personal choice to bring destruction upon themselves -----people need to take responsibility for their choices and stop blaming God -------God loves His creation but will rightly punish the sinner for their rebellious prideful attitude -----

So for the true Christian this chapter can be reconciled with a true Christian viewpoint----in my view anyway ----

Interesting to know --
Hebrew Word of the Day

Obadiah

is one of the 12 minor prophets

The name O•vad•yah, Obadiah, is perhaps the best representation of a name-fate connection that we witness in so many Hebrew names. The second part of this name includes God’s name (‘Yah’) just as you hear in the phrase Hallelujah (Ha•lle•lu•yah, in Hebrew). The first part of the prophet’s name is derived from the root O.V.D (Ayin, Vet, Dalet), which means ‘a servant.’ The name, O•vad•yah, has the meaning of ‘the servant of…’. The full name, in proper English translation, means ‘the servant of God,’ or ‘God’s Servant’. This is exactly the purpose and the fate of the prophet.
 

GordW

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And yet in the Genesis accounts of the interactions between JAcob and Esau it is clear the Jacob is the bigger jerk. (Actually Jacob is a bit of an ass all through his story, his relationship with Laban is not great moral tale either) So it is hard to use that storyas a justification for destroying Edom. Obadiah is a challenge, which is liikely why few people even know that the book exists.
 

unsafe

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The Edomites were wanting to take Israel and Judah for their own and really disliked the Jacob and the Israelites ---these people were displaying anger and jealousy against God's people and nations ------God could not tolerate such actions ---and rightly pronounced heavy judgement on Edom ----- God is protecting His people by His Judgement


Ezekiel 35 ERV

The Message Against Edom

35 The word of the Lord came to me. He said, 2 “Son of man,[a] look toward Mount Seir and speak against it for me. 3 Say to it, ‘This is what the Lord God says:

“‘I am against you, Mount Seir!
I will punish you and make you an empty wasteland.
4 I will destroy your cities,
and you will become empty.
Then you will know that I am the Lord.

5 “‘Why? Because you have always been against my people. You used your sword against Israel at the time of their trouble, at the time of their final punishment.’” 6 So the Lord God says, “But I promise by my own life that I will let death have you. Death will chase you. You did not hate killing people, so death will chase you. 7 I will make Mount Seir an empty ruin. I will kill everyone who enters or leaves that city. 8 I will cover its mountains with those who are killed. There will be dead bodies all over your hills, in your valleys, and in all your ravines. 9 I will make you empty forever. No one will live in your cities. Then you will know that I am the Lord.”

10 You said, “These two nations and countries, Israel and Judah, will be mine. We will take them for our own.”

But the Lord is there! 11 And the Lord God says, “You were jealous of my people. You were angry and hateful to them. So by my life, I swear that I will punish you the same way you hurt them! I will punish you and let my people know that I am with them. 12 And then you, too, will know that I am the Lord.

“I have heard you making fun of Israel’s hill country. You said, ‘It is in ruins, just waiting for us to swallow it up.’ 13 Your proud boasting is really against me. Time after time you have insulted me, and I have heard every word.”

14 This is what the Lord God says: “All the earth will be happy when I destroy you. 15 You were happy when the country of Israel was destroyed. I will treat you the same way. Mount Seir and the whole country of Edom will be destroyed. Then you will know that I am the Lord.”

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I say -------God chose Jacob over Esau before they were born -----so no matter how we view what both boys were guilty of doing ---Jacob was the chosen one to be heir of the promise to Abraham ---we see that in the scripture below

Genesis 25 NIV

21 Isaac prayed to the Lord on behalf of his wife, because she was childless. The Lord answered his prayer, and his wife Rebekah became pregnant. 22 The babies jostled each other within her, and she said, “Why is this happening to me?” So she went to inquire of the Lord.

23 The Lord said to her,


“Two nations are in your womb,
and two peoples from within you will be separated;
one people will be stronger than the other,
and the older will serve the younger.”

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-Esau was very blessed by God as was Jacob so much so that they had to separate because they had so much material wealth in livestock and there was not enough land to hold it all -------

Genesis 36 NIV

6 Esau took his wives and sons and daughters and all the members of his household, as well as his livestock and all his other animals and all the goods he had acquired in Canaan, and moved to a land some distance from his brother Jacob.

7 Their possessions were too great for them to remain together; the land where they were staying could not support them both because of their livestock.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------By God picking Jacob over Esau it shows that God's sovereignty in who He chooses to complete His plan cannot be thwarted ---God will pick who He wants to execute and bring about His plan the way He wants ---and His plan is still playing out Folks --- and it will continue to be played His way -----
 

unsafe

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BetteTheRed ---you said ---Hmmm...a more true telling of the story would be "Jacob, who tricked his brother Esau out of his birthright".

Ya I agree with Esau being tricked out of his birthright ----there is no question about that -----it was his Mother who told him to dress like Esau ---so all 3 played a part in this deed ---Esau had no business giving over his birthright to Jacob for a meal in the first place -----

It also shows that the Mother had no trust in what God said to her about the older serving the younger -----when she got pregnant -----God had already chosen Jacob to be the heir of the promise ------but I guess she saw deception as being the only way for that to happen ----

It reminds me of Abraham and Sarah who couldn't understand how they could have a child in their old age so they took matters in their own hands and didn't trust what God said -in the first round -----
 

Waterfall

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BetteTheRed ---you said ---Hmmm...a more true telling of the story would be "Jacob, who tricked his brother Esau out of his birthright".

Ya I agree with Esau being tricked out of his birthright ----there is no question about that -----it was his Mother who told him to dress like Esau ---so all 3 played a part in this deed ---Esau had no business giving over his birthright to Jacob for a meal in the first place -----

It also shows that the Mother had no trust in what God said to her about the older serving the younger -----when she got pregnant -----God had already chosen Jacob to be the heir of the promise ------but I guess she saw deception as being the only way for that to happen ----

It reminds me of Abraham and Sarah who couldn't understand how they could have a child in their old age so they took matters in their own hands and didn't trust what God said -in the first round -----
So tell me...how does Jesus act like God in these stories?
And why all the drama created by God for the mother to carry twins just to desert one and destroy the people?
 

unsafe

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Waterfall ---you said ---So tell me...how does Jesus act like God in these stories?

My answer would be -----Jesus hadn't come yet -----we are dealing with God The Father here --who dealt with the people personally

Your Quote -----And why all the drama created by God for the mother to carry twins just to desert one and destroy the people?

I see it this way ------God is sovereign and God had a plan to bring about His Son to save all people -----Esau and Jacob did nothing good or bad in the womb --God chose Jacob over Esau before they were born -----only God knows the heart of the person ----Esau was a skilled hunter --a field man ----Jacob was a quiet content man ----who by this below was slow to anger -----a type man God wanted to fulfil His plan -----

Genesis 25:27, NLT: "As the boys grew up, Esau became a skillful hunter. He was an outdoorsman, but Jacob had a quiet temperament, preferring to stay at home."

I say ----When it comes to God executing His Plan -----He will choose who He wants ------He chose Jonah and look what He had to do to get Jonah to obey Him -----he ended up in the belly of a whale ----
 

GordW

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BetteTheRed ---you said ---Hmmm...a more true telling of the story would be "Jacob, who tricked his brother Esau out of his birthright".

Ya I agree with Esau being tricked out of his birthright ----there is no question about that -----it was his Mother who told him to dress like Esau ---so all 3 played a part in this deed ---Esau had no business giving over his birthright to Jacob for a meal in the first place -----

It also shows that the Mother had no trust in what God said to her about the older serving the younger -----when she got pregnant -----God had already chosen Jacob to be the heir of the promise ------but I guess she saw deception as being the only way for that to happen ----

It reminds me of Abraham and Sarah who couldn't understand how they could have a child in their old age so they took matters in their own hands and didn't trust what God said -in the first round -----
OR.....

The people who passed on the stories of Esau and Jacob and eventually put them into writing are the nation nominally descended from Jacob and so they told the story as God favoring Jacob starting in the womb and Esau being a bit of a dunderhead, easily tricked into giving up his birthright.
 

GordW

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Back to Obadiah. I am pretty sure that the words against Edom in Obadiah and in the Ezekiel passage cited above have less to do with the Patriarch stories and more to do with the geopolitical realities of the conquest and into the monarchical period.
 

Waterfall

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Waterfall ---you said ---So tell me...how does Jesus act like God in these stories?

My answer would be -----Jesus hadn't come yet -----we are dealing with God The Father here --who dealt with the people personally
But you say Jesus is God....so where does he kill those who don't follow him?
 

Waterfall

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Your Quote -----And why all the drama created by God for the mother to carry twins just to desert one and destroy the people?

I see it this way ------God is sovereign and God had a plan to bring about His Son to save all people -----Esau and Jacob did nothing good or bad in the womb --God chose Jacob over Esau before they were born -----only God knows the heart of the person ----Esau was a skilled hunter --a field man ----Jacob was a quiet content man ----who by this below was slow to anger -----a type man God wanted to fulfil His plan -----

Genesis 25:27, NLT: "As the boys grew up, Esau became a skillful hunter. He was an outdoorsman, but Jacob had a quiet temperament, preferring to stay at home."

I say ----When it comes to God executing His Plan -----He will choose who He wants ------He chose Jonah and look what He had to do to get Jonah to obey Him -----he ended up in the belly of a whale ----
Yes an even temperament is good....so just place that boy in the mother's womb to be born.
Or maybe God inspired the Forest Gump movie with the phrase...: s**t happens".
 

unsafe

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Waterfall -----you said -----But you say Jesus is God....so where does he kill those who don't follow him?

Jesus is the second person of the trinity ----and the Holy Spirit is the third person of the trinity ---all 3 persons are God -----This is how I see it ------God the Father is the God Head ---God the Son who is Jesus --is the living Word ----Jesus Created all things --by God the Father speaking His living Word who is Jesus --so the living word is God ------and the Holy Spirit is the helper who lives in us when we accept God the Son who is Jesus in our hearts ------

3 Gods different functions -------now you don't have to believe that ----you can believe whatever you want to -----God will use whom ever He wants to and if we don't agree with that ==then we need to take it to God and ask Him why he choose Jacob over Esau -----

What I believe is my Belief I can't answer the why God does what He does ----I just accept what the Word says and I leave the Why up to God -------He knows every person's heart and personality that fits what He wants ----we don't -

We now have Jesus as our mediator who goes to the Father on our behalf -----the Old Testament People did not have that luxury -----

I am just thankful that God used whoever He felt would bring about His plan in the best way to make way for the arrival of His Son to live in the flesh and die the most terrible death and take all His Father's wrath that we deserve upon Himself so we today do not have to experience the Father's wrath that the Old Testament people experienced because of their disobedience to Him ---Jesus goes to the Father on our behalf now -------Praise Jesus for that -----
 

Luce NDs

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Under the power of light the abstract shrinks ... psychotic points of reference? Waves of darkness and mind obliterations pass ...

Reconstructions of the imagined citied? An odd point ...
 
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