Nicodemus at Night (John 3: 1-21)

Welcome to Wondercafe2!

A community where we discuss, share, and have some fun together. Join today and become a part of it!

Register Log in
The synoptic gospels all say that Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

They do not refer to Jesus as the Lamb of God.

Just for comparison.
 
Moving right along if that's okay.

What is your take on v.14?

"Just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the son of Man be lifted up so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life." (NET)

Is Jesus foreshadowing the cross? The resurrection? Both?

What is the connection to the serpent lifted up by Moses?
 
paradox3 said:
What is your take on v.14?
Click to expand...
Here is the full story of the serpent from Numbers 21:6-9.
6 Then the Lord sent poisonous[c] serpents among the people, and they bit the people, so that many Israelites died. 7 The people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned by speaking against the Lord and against you; pray to the Lord to take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people. 8 And the Lord said to Moses, “Make a poisonous[d] serpent, and set it on a pole, and everyone who is bitten shall look at it and live.” 9 So Moses made a serpent of bronze and put it upon a pole, and whenever a serpent bit someone, that person would look at the serpent of bronze and live.
Click to expand...
Jesus is really equating himself with the bronze serpent who will save those who sinned. So, yeah, I guess it could be a reference to the cross, with the cross as the pole and Jesus as the bronze serpent. Look at Jesus and live, basically. That's my reading after reviewing the story in Numbers.
 
Mendalla said:
Here is the full story of the serpent from Numbers 21:6-9.

Jesus is really equating himself with the bronze serpent who will save those who sinned. So, yeah, I guess it could be a reference to the cross, with the cross as the pole and Jesus as the bronze serpent. Look at Jesus and live, basically. That's my reading after reviewing the story in Numbers.
Click to expand...
Jesus equating himself with a bronze serpent seems just a little odd doesn't it?

The tie in with Moses could be important.

The people still got bitten by the serpents. But they could gaze at the bronze serpent on the pole and live. Why didn't God just take away the poisonous serpents that God sent in the first place?
 
It was manifesting the grace of Yahweh in s bodily way. Body feels the pain of the bite. The body feels the healing.
 
paradox3 said:
Jesus equating himself with a bronze serpent seems just a little odd doesn't it?

The tie in with Moses could be important.

The people still got bitten by the serpents. But they could gaze at the bronze serpent on the pole and live. Why didn't God just take away the poisonous serpents that God sent in the first place?
Click to expand...
Well, if they were real serpents, God would. But these are symbolic serpents, representing (I guess) the torments inflicted on those who piss-off God. At least that's a possible reading. I like Jim's reading, too.
 
We still use snakes wrapped around a pole in medicine to represent healing and the staff of Hermes with 2 snakes wrapped around it with wings at the top, are sometimes seen on backs of ambulances. Hermes was a messenger God known for speed and escorting the dead to an afterlife.
Also the snake was often seen in the near east as a sign for fertility and blessing but also sometimes as a monster.
 
The metal snake on a pole is sometimes referred to as Nehushtan....and in Moses case was supposed to symbolize salvation.
 
Mendalla said:
Well, if they were real serpents, God would. But these are symbolic serpents, representing (I guess) the torments inflicted on those who piss-off God. At least that's a possible reading. I like Jim's reading, too.
Click to expand...
How do you know they were symbolic serpents? With today's eyes we might read the story that way, I agree.
 
Waterfall said:
We still use snakes wrapped around a pole in medicine to represent healing and the staff of Hermes with 2 snakes wrapped around it with wings at the top, are sometimes seen on backs of ambulances. Hermes was a messenger God known for speed and escorting the dead to an afterlife.
Also the snake was often seen in the near east as a sign for fertility and blessing but also sometimes as a monster.
Click to expand...
This is fascinating
 
Bottom line here. John has Jesus likening himself to a metal serpent on a pole. I get that it was a symbolic metal serpent.

The Numbers story has real serpents sent by God which bite people. And a symbolic metal serpent on a pole.

Still trying to wrap my mind around this.
 
And of course, a snake consuming it's own tail is a symbol of immortality, among other things. Humans seem to have an essential relationship with snakes.
 
BetteTheRed said:
And of course, a snake consuming it's own tail is a symbol of immortality, among other things. Humans seem to have an essential relationship with snakes.
Click to expand...
Yeah I was thinking about the serpent in the garden of Eden.

The medical symbol seems to go back to Greek mythology but I am fuzzy on the details
 
jimkenney12 said:
It was manifesting the grace of Yahweh in s bodily way. Body feels the pain of the bite. The body feels the healing.
Click to expand...
This doesn't make Yahweh too appealing. There are kinder ways Yahweh could have manifested grace, right? Sending poisonous serpents which would be later thwarted by a bronze serpent on a pole.sounds somewhat capricious to me.
 
paradox3 said:
This doesn't make Yahweh too appealing. There are kinder ways Yahweh could have manifested grace, right? Sending poisonous serpents which would be later thwarted by a bronze serpent on a pole.sounds somewhat capricious to me.
Click to expand...

Agreed. We had a conversation at my Tuesday night group last week around "what is the character of my god?".
 
My youngest daughter at the age of 10 said "What kind of a God is that?" when she heard the Gideons say only Christians would be saved.

She was in a grade 4/5 split class and the Gideons were in talking to the grade 5's.
 
Welcome to the conversation @Waterfall and @BetteTheRed

I didn't anticipate that we would wind up talking about a metal serpent on a pole but here we are.

I did expect we would wade into the waters of exclusivity as expressed in John's Gospel. Let us all remember to be kind and respectful in this discussion.
 
The serpents were sent as punishment. I believe it was a response to their persistent complaining
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top