Nicodemus at Night (John 3: 1-21)

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Is the exclusivity in John's gospel reflective of the author's theology or the theology of his community?
 
On a seperate note, does the exclusivity in John mark a significant change in the circumstances of the community? For the first few decades of the community, it was eagerly recruiting new members. By the time the Gospel of John was written, had it grown to the point where some members felt the need to limit who belonged in the community.
 
It makes no difference in wrestling with the gospel. Just my curiousity about community dynamics.
 
Waterfall said:
Well, the world isnt always kind to humans, whether its nature or man.
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This. The idea of a hostile, punishing God really comes from our direct experience of the world which, especially in ancient and prehistoric times, could be pretty nasty. Even today, hurricanes, volcanoes, earthquakes, plagues, etc. can be absolutely devastating even leaving aside our own proclivity for kicking each other's asses.
 
paradox3 said:
Moving right along if that's okay.

What is your take on v.14?

"Just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the son of Man be lifted up so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life." (NET)

Is Jesus foreshadowing the cross? The resurrection? Both?

What is the connection to the serpent lifted up by Moses?
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Mendalla answers your questions here. But there is a good reason for Jesus comparisons with Moses.
Peter quotes Deuteronomy 18:15 in Acts 3:23): "Moses said: "The Lord will raise up for you from your own people a prophet like me. You must listen to whatever He tells you." Whenever the Gospels identify Jesus as the Prophet, they have this prophecy in mind.
The heavenly voice at the Transfiguration quotes the last line from Deut. 18:15 here, establishing Jesus as the Prophet like Moses. Moses' presence is not to symbolize the Lae, as many claim, but to point to Jesus as his prophetic replacement.
 
Thus our spirit, essence, will be sucked up into the atmosphere ... as slick as any other snaky comprehension ... some are more slimed than others due to the snake oil sales ... part of business (even in church)!

Part of the environmental paradox; what goes up rains on us ... sometimes cats, dogs, etc. Tis all for the birds ... black and frightening ...
 
jimkenney12 said:
On a seperate note, does the exclusivity in John mark a significant change in the circumstances of the community? For the first few decades of the community, it was eagerly recruiting new members. By the time the Gospel of John was written, had it grown to the point where some members felt the need to limit who belonged in the community.
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This is interesting to ponder.

The growth in the community might not have been the problem. It could be they were needing spiritual renewal by this time.

Do people on this thread think that John had access to the synoptic gospels? Would the community already have been familiar with that material?

This could explain why John repeats so few of the stories. Instead he tries to imbue more sense of the Spirit and advocates strongly for belief.

There is a theory in organizational development that organizations of all kinds go through cycles of high and low morale. At times of low morale, organizations often cling to bureaucracy and create more of it.

What they really need is a new story to engage the people. Could this be what is going on in the Fourth Gospel?
 
The Nicodemus story introduces the idea of light coming into the world with Jesus.

Jesus will later state that he is the Light of the World. (,John 8:13).

Jesus also uses the phrase in Matthew's Gospel but here he is referring to the disciples. They are said to be both salt and light.
 
Mendalla said:
Which is consistent with this Gospel's theological focus. The "I AM" statements could equally be said to be "We believe he was" statements put into the first person.
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This is true.

But perhaps John also wanted to convey that Jesus fully understood his unique nature?

In the conversation with the Samaritan woman at the well, Jesus acknowledges that he is the Messiah, the one called Christ. (John 4: 25-26)
 
paradox3 said:
This is true.

But perhaps John also wanted to convey that Jesus fully understood his unique nature?

In the conversation with the Samaritan woman at the well, Jesus acknowledges that he is the Messiah, the one called Christ. (John 4: 25-26)
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But that still treats Jesus as a character in a story, doesn't it? Did he really say those things, or are they things that he was said to have said? That fit the theological outlook of the community of John?
 
Mendalla said:
But that still treats Jesus as a character in a story, doesn't it? Did he really say those things, or are they things that he was said to have said? That fit the theological outlook of the community of John?
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What did I say that you disagree with?
 
12:42-43 implies that Nicodemus really came to Jesus "at night" because he feared expulsion from his synagogue, if other Pharisees discovered his interest in Jesus. But once again, a true fact has secondary symbolic meaning, established by Jesus' teaching on light and darkness at the end of the passage (3:19-21). Nicodemus remains in darkness but is making progress towards the light. He later defends Jesus' right to a fair hearing, thereby drawing Pharisaic suspicion that he is a secret disciple (7:50-52). Later still, Nicodemus helps Joseph of Arimathea take down Jesus' corpse and buys a huge amount of spices fit for a royal burial (19:38-42). But the Gospel editor disdains the secret devotion of Nicodemus and Jewish leaders like him because "they loved human glory more than the glory that comes from God (12:41)."
The Gospel's author is lamenting the situation that prevailed among Jesus' followers in the early Jerusalem church., which included many Jesus' fans who attended 1 of the 400 Jerusalem synagogues, but were reluctant to join a Christian house church. All this makes more sense if I am right that the Beloved Disciple is in fact Jesus' brother James, the head of the Jerusalem church.
 
paradox3 said:
Moving right along if that's okay.

What is your take on v.14?

"Just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the son of Man be lifted up so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life." (NET)

Is Jesus foreshadowing the cross? The resurrection? Both?

What is the connection to the serpent lifted up by Moses?


I say
To understand this you need to go to Numbers 21 ----this is where God tells Moses to make the Bronze serpent on a pole ------
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Numbers 21 CEB

The bronze snake’s healing power​

4 They marched from Mount Hor on the Reed Sea[b] road around the land of Edom. The people became impatient on the road.

5 The people spoke against God and Moses: “Why did you bring us up from Egypt to kill us in the desert, where there is no food or water. And we detest this miserable bread!”

6 So the Lord sent poisonous[c] snakes among the people and they bit the people. Many of the Israelites died.

7 The people went to Moses and said, “We’ve sinned, for we spoke against the Lord and you. Pray to the Lord so that he will send the snakes away from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.

8 The Lord said to Moses, “Make a poisonous snake and place it on a pole. Whoever is bitten can look at it and live.”

9 Moses made a bronze snake and placed it on a pole. If a snake bit someone, that person could look at the bronze snake and live.
-------------------------------------------------

I say
So in John 3 the Bronze snake is mentioned as Jesus is talking to Nicodemus who would have been very familiar with the Old Testament and a teacher of the Jews and should understand Spiritual things more than he does --

Jesus says to Nicodemus -----

John 3:10 CEB​

10 “Jesus answered, “You are a teacher of Israel and you don’t know these things?
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John 3&version=CEB
AND In verse 13 --Jesus tells Nicodemus this ------using ESV here

13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.[a]

I say
Then comes verse 14 ------Just like Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness -----so people could see it -----and be healed and Live ------So will Jesus be lifted up on a pole so people can see Him and be healed so people can live -----

So this is about Spiritual eternal death and Life -----

The bronze serpent on the pole represents the deadly bite that the serpent imposed on the Israelite's that brought in the curse which brought them eternal Death ----

The looking at the Serpent which heals represents Jesus and the coming Salvation and the defeat of the curse which brings back eternal life -----

Verse 15 gives you this ------

3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
 
Here is a nice definition of eternal life from my NIV study Bible:

Life in living fellowship with God --- both now and forever.
 
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