New Hymns
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BetteTheRed
Resident Heretic
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That sounds cool. Needs to replace that awful verse "saved a wretch like me" with "saved and strengthened me"...
BetteTheRed
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Except that I don't love the "fortress" imagery in that song. Strikes me as unnecessarily adversarial/warlike.
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
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I am sure that you could find other images for God as a protector and slip them in. I forget the rest of the words but you might need to change other verses as well because of the change in core image.
How did that don? Then in Celtic Eire ... Don/Ron is like a hole in space ... down to earth moment of inertia and impulse?
Then one can sing the Church's One Foundation to the Wabash Cannonball ... is this railway to heaven cool as a downhill rush with John Brown as he stoked the fires of Engine #Nein as if there was nothing to backsliding? Coming round the mound with Clementine ... will it come back from the bottom line as passions lay one out?
Dirty pits ...
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Jobam
Well-Known Member
So, last night before going to sleep I got thinking, if I was going to write a song what would I say and or write about. I am not a writer.
I got to thinking about Rev Gary Paterson – always encouraging us to tell our story. I started thinking about songs/hymns that tell stories. Many contemporary songs tell stories of some sort and are not reliant on words rhyming.
So a personal journey of some sort, a personal struggle of ourselves or someone we know. The best sermons include a personal reference/stories. I wonder if hymns/songs would be the same.
A hymn about coming out to God and our local community and/or parents
A struggle of someone we know with cancer/illness and how their faith has helped/supported them.
Love between two people walking with God.
A minister trying to be there for someone.
A couples struggle with life
Crap, the church and its members are full of stories…..some praising, some sad, some happy etc.
So why don’t our hymns reflect us?
I got to thinking about Rev Gary Paterson – always encouraging us to tell our story. I started thinking about songs/hymns that tell stories. Many contemporary songs tell stories of some sort and are not reliant on words rhyming.
So a personal journey of some sort, a personal struggle of ourselves or someone we know. The best sermons include a personal reference/stories. I wonder if hymns/songs would be the same.
A hymn about coming out to God and our local community and/or parents
A struggle of someone we know with cancer/illness and how their faith has helped/supported them.
Love between two people walking with God.
A minister trying to be there for someone.
A couples struggle with life
Crap, the church and its members are full of stories…..some praising, some sad, some happy etc.
So why don’t our hymns reflect us?
Jobam
Well-Known Member
OMG – I just found this. I toured with the Continental Singers back in 1980 – this is my church music experience. We sang in churches through the U.S. Without going into a lot of history – there was approx. 25 tours that went out each summer. We would all meet up in August and perform a finale. Approx 500 of us on stage. My tour started in Los Angeles then across all the northern states to New York - we flew to Switzerland and performed there, Hungary, Yugoslavia and Germany. Returned to New York, and toured all the southern states back to L.A. 50 states in one summer. Oh to be young again. This clip is from their 25th anniversary. I couldn’t find a clip of our 1980 show, but I did find three songs from it starting at 35:53 This is my church music history – I never found anything like it in the UCC….. its 2018 at I am sure I would be hard pressed to find any music with so much variation in any UCC church. I'm having a blast from the past finding videos of actual tours......I had always hoped I could start a choir at a church that could emulate much of what I learned with the Continental Singers..... maybe in my next life...LOL
Dull Ness in simple terms of not wishing to hear or see the sad parts ... thus oceanic tragedy ... drawing attention by odes ... and men do go down there ... to the Zae as Don ... to be adorned by the story attributes when gone ... on the other side some power will ask what story have you got for me prodigally speaking ... and thus it is retained in abstract ... the darker imagination?
The some Dai you might get waked by a poke in the dark ... the tail end of Finnegan .. and it all will be fine again as up-she-comes ... oh Sean? AT LAN tis ... local area networking ... not all woven yet ... there are dissonant parts ... Eris & and still ... Ka đ Uses ... there are two faces ... maybe more ... shear chaos ...
However in the dark of the sub-con science ... all light collects regardless o the hue ... it may come back to you later ... maybe not if you are in inadequate position to see what's overhead .. a great Sow 'n place? Does go round!
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Hi, Bette,
The writer. John Newton, refers to himself as a wretch because he was in the horrid business of hauling kidnapped Africans into slavery in England and the Colonies. He repented of his sin, but spent much of his life in the slave trade before doing so and becoming an abolitionist. Hence, he was a "wretch", at the very least, because of his miserable trafficking in human beings.
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The stuff that cranks the soul during the wake ... and up she comes as revelation ... apocalypse now ... never ignore the lips ... they can be dangerous as stone fish ... ugly things with great mouths ... like the Bat man projection on the night sky ... if observed in an alternate way it is a toothy fish mouth agape ... requiring abstract sense!
Jobam
Well-Known Member
Could you give us some examples of older traditional hymns that have theological depth?
Church in the undomesticated forest ... I.E. The Wildwood ... can blow fixated minds ... the lasses there wait for the Sawyer ... to learn of Satyr's dusting ... dervishes?
After a time Nous Beans ... fresh beings?
revsdd
Well-Known Member
That will likely simply lead to a disagreement on the theology of the hymns. "I don't like that hymn, therefore it has no theological depth," when what is meant is simply "I don't agree with the theology of that hymn." Those are different things. Not agreeing with a hymn's theology doesn't mean it lacks theological depth. I'm not at all interested in getting into a debate about whether the theological perspective of a particular hymn is good or bad or whatever. Theological depth to me implies a hymn that engages the brain - which might mean strong disagreement with the theology, but it also means that we're grappling with the ideas and images.
But, a few examples - Martin Luther's hymn "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God" makes a powerful theological statement about the presence of God even in our times of deepest trial, our need for God, the power of Christ and the defeat of evil and the ultimate triumph of God. It's also written (or translated into English) with images and symbols that are troubling to many people which explains why it's rarely sung in most United Churches today. John Newton's "Amazing Grace" is the same. It's so traditional that I'm actually kind of bored with it, but I see Newton grappling with theology and the theology of the hymn makes a powerful statement when put in the context of Newton's own story. And rather than demanding that "to save a wretch like me" be removed, maybe we should grapple with why Newton put that particular construction in the hymn and what a powerful statement it is that even those who feel wretched about themselves for one reason or another have hope - because I will bet that on any given Sunday in most congregations there's somebody feeling wretched about themselves. I would add a third example - Martin Rinkart's "Now Thank We All Our God." Again, Rinkart's experiences as a pastor are important to understanding the depth and significance of the hymn. There are so-called "Negro spirituals" that are very deep and powerful considering the context of slavery from which they came. Some contemporary hymns do a decent job of grappling with theological imagery and thought. Some contemporary stuff does this for me - engages me and makes me thoughtful. Three from More Voices: Gordon Light's "Come Touch Our Hearts," Elizabeth J. Smith's "God In The Darkness" and Ruth Duck's "Are You A Shepherd?" offer some thought-provoking images of God. Among more evangelical stuff, I like Keith Getty's "In Christ Alone" (although the second "verse" is too heavy on substitutionary atonement for me to be fully comfortable with it - but as I said I don't have to be comfortable to find something thought-provoking.) Also, Mark Lowry's "Mary, Did You Know" is a favourite of mine at Christmas because of its exploration of the reality and meaning and challenge of divine incarnation. Amy Grant's "Breath of Heaven" is an interesting reflection on the challenges of accepting God's call - again, through the eyes of Mary.
However, in my view, much of what passes for "contemporary" Christian music often seeks to engage heart at the expense of engaging the brain. So that in evangelical contemporary stuff we get endless repetitions of "Jesus loves me and Jesus loves you and Jesus shed his blood for us even though we're sinners" but no unpacking of theology, while in more liberal contemporary stuff we get "God wants us to be real nice and supportive of everybody and not to offend anyone" with the same lack of any unpacking of why. (Both critiques are, by the way, admittedly vague generalizations.) There are more traditional hymns that appeal only to the heart - for example, pretty much anything by Fanny Crosby (although her blindness makes some of her stuff pretty powerful, particularly in the imagery of God she offers in some of her songs), who was one of the earliest significant "heart" hymn writers. And, frankly, what the hell is the point of "There's A Church In The Valley By The Wildwood" - which seems to celebrate a building ("the little brown church in the vale") rather than God or the church as a community of people.
One difference between a lot of "traditional" stuff vs a lot of "contemporary" stuff (there are exceptions, of course) is that traditional hymns tended to be written by theologians or pastors who knew something about music and wanted to make important theological points and who wanted to engage doctrine, whereas a lot of contemporary stuff is written by songwriters who happen to be Christians but who don't care all that much about theology or doctrine and (in some cases - especially the more evangelical songwriters) are almost as interested in making money and crossing over into the secular music world than they are in writing songs of praise to God. (Early example: Elvis Presley, who started as a gospel singer; contemporary example: Katy Perry, who began in the evangelical world - her parents are, I believe, still Pentecostal pastors.)
The dangers involved in the two styles (head vs heart) are that in going for the head God can come across as very distant and vaguely ominous, and in going for the heart God can become a cosmic teddy bear who just wants to give us all big cuddles (or God is sometimes ignored altogether.) I suspect most would agree that blessed is the hymn/song (whatever you want to call it) that engages both head and heart.
Jobam
Well-Known Member
@revsdd - Thanks! You bring up an interesting conversation. If you have to know the theology and/or history of a hymn song then what is it's value to the regular people in the pew, and/or kids in church who don't know the history or for that matter care.
MVU uses a lot of poetic and flowery lyrics which kids can't relate to thus I wonder of their validity in a few years...
I think I understand your concept of emotions in what we have previously called Contemporary Christian Music Praise Songs. However, there are many modern hymns that have come out lately that are less reliant on the typical praise song style.
In the US many contemporary music groups/artists have writers who write their songs. Are there no professional current song writers that the UCC can tap into? Our sister church, The United Church of Christ in the states has the same issue.
MVU uses a lot of poetic and flowery lyrics which kids can't relate to thus I wonder of their validity in a few years...
I think I understand your concept of emotions in what we have previously called Contemporary Christian Music Praise Songs. However, there are many modern hymns that have come out lately that are less reliant on the typical praise song style.
In the US many contemporary music groups/artists have writers who write their songs. Are there no professional current song writers that the UCC can tap into? Our sister church, The United Church of Christ in the states has the same issue.
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Jobam
Well-Known Member
I love the Church in The Wildwood - its wording is limited by its time of writing, however, the tune is steadfast and memorable. I bet you won't find many that know the song who are under 30.
BetteTheRed
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Scott Kearns, music director at West Hill, is a song-writer/composer, although his lyrics are, per his congregation's policy, "post-theistic".
Jobam
Well-Known Member
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
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Post-theism - what UUs have been doing since 1964.
And I am not being facetious about that. When I read With or Without God, it sounded rather like the religious humanists I know in UU'ism.