My Weekly Devotional

[Jaebius]

More importantly, he joins those who sit in judgment of Peterson by claiming without evidence that he recanted for financial reasons to promote his book sales.

Mystic, apparently you missed my post above. Here's what I said again. Perhaps this time you'll read it. I said, "In fact I didn't claim that Mystic. Please do not put words in my mouth. The closest thing I said to that was this (new emphasis here), "His change of heart MAY OR MAY NOT have had something to do with Lifeway."

 

[BetteTheRed]

It's a very human thing to do - to put one's political and social affiliations ahead of one's personal opinions. I'd be hard-pressed to describe this as anything else but human expediency.

Arsenokoites and malakos are problematic. The first is a word unique to Paul, hence its clumsy translation: abusers of themselves with mankind. Malakos means "soft", secondarily "effeminate". I'd have a real hard time in a 21st century context condemning a person who happened to have been born "effeminate" to whatever culture they exist.

 

[revsdd]

Paraphrases require controversial rewordings. The 3 texts in question clearly address same-sex sex acts. The decision to suppress this fact can't be excused on the basis of dynamic interpretation; rather, it reflects Peterson's pro-gay agenda. Biblical paraphrases should not distort basic intent, regardless of whether that intent might offend the translator and his audience. The translator must still allow Paul to speak for himself, especially if the translator deems it acceptable to grearly paraphrase the Greek text.

First a paraphrase and a dynamic translation are different things. I would have thought you'd have known that but you don't seem to since you use the two interchangeably.

But from the perspective of the translator engaging in dynamic translation, he/she is, in fact, attempting to allow Paul to speak for himself to a 21st century audience by trying to eliminate 1st century cultural baggage and render what Paul actually meant to say. Again - one of the problems with dynamic translation is that is does tend to reflect the translator's bias much more than a literal translation (and literal translations are not free from that problem either.) So I have no argument with you that Peterson's biases are showing through. I do think that he is correct to essentially question whether Paul's references would apply to 21st century homosexuality, or whether he's thinking of homosexuality not as a sin in and of itself, but as a different type of sexual sin (ie, adultery and fornication.) I think that's an arguable position.

 

[Luce NDs]

It's a very human thing to do - to put one's political and social affiliations ahead of one's personal opinions. I'd be hard-pressed to describe this as anything else but human expediency.

Arsenokoites and malakos are problematic. The first is a word unique to Paul, hence its clumsy translation: abusers of themselves with mankind. Malakos means "soft", secondarily "effeminate". I'd have a real hard time in a 21st century context condemning a person who happened to have been born "effeminate" to whatever culture they exist.

Part of the gentile sects and some powers are hell bent to abuse ... just because they can ... and like toys they are broken and not useful if not used with care at all times ... means nothing to brutis ... can word be brute and poly Miss Understood? Mystery Ladies ... Aamon with some mudder toem? Creative Pokémon ...

 

[Mystic]

Steve,: "First a paraphrase and a dynamic translation are different things. I would have thought you'd have known that but you don't seem to since you use the two interchangeably."
To be worthwhile, even a dynamic translation must strive to be faithful to the author's original intent. I would have thought you knew that. It is perfectly legitimate to question Paul's same-sex sexual values; it is reprehensible to create the impression that he ducks these issues.

Steve: "But from the perspective of the translator engaging in dynamic translation, he/she is, in fact, attempting to allow Paul to speak for himself to a 21st century audience by trying to eliminate 1st century cultural baggage and render what Paul actually meant to say."
On my "Footsteps of St. Paul tour of Greece and Turkey I learned that the population of Corinth in Paul's day was approximately 700,000, in contrast to Athens which was only about 20,000. The huge population of Corinth back then was largely to due the Roman garrision there and the huge number of slaves. Sexual exploitation of slave boys was repent and this abuse is likely what Paul has in mind in 1 Corinthians. To glass this over by changing it to a general cliché about sexual immortality is artistic vandalism, even disingenuous.

The same is true of Bette's beloved Inclusive Bible. To eliminate patriarchal bias in contradiction of original intent may create a more politically correct meaning. But it contradicts authorial intent and raises the question of why progressives don't just invent their only Bible and ignore cultural makers of true meaning. To do so without making this ploy clear to the congregation is disingenuous to the max.

 

[revsdd]

Gee, when was it we found ourselves on a first name basis, Don?

Steve,: "First a paraphrase and a dynamic translation are different things. I would have thought you'd have known that but you don't seem to since you use the two interchangeably."
To be worthwhile, even a dynamic translation must strive to be faithful to the author's original intent. I would have thought you knew that. It is perfectly legitimate to question Paul's same-sex sexual values; it is reprehensible to create the impression that he ducks these issues.

I agree with you. But it's possibly disingenuous to suggest (as do most modern literal translations - or at least those who read them) that Paul was speaking of same sex sexual relations in the same way we speak of them today. Therein lies the problem, as you well point out in your next paragraph.

Steve: "But from the perspective of the translator engaging in dynamic translation, he/she is, in fact, attempting to allow Paul to speak for himself to a 21st century audience by trying to eliminate 1st century cultural baggage and render what Paul actually meant to say."
On my "Footsteps of St. Paul tour of Greece and Turkey I learned that the population of Corinth in Paul's day was approximately 700,000, in contrast to Athens which was only about 20,000. The huge population of Corinth back then was largely to due the Roman garrision there and the huge number of slaves. Sexual exploitation of slave boys was repent and this abuse is likely what Paul has in mind in 1 Corinthians. To glass this over by changing it to a general cliché about sexual immortality is artistic vandalism, even disingenuous.

You're correct that Paul is probably speaking of the sexual exploitation of young boys in Corinth and other places. That was rampant (I suspect you meant "rampant" and not "repent.") But - that's not how the passage is read by many - especially conservative evangelicals - today, who insist on applying it even to committed and loving same sex relationships between consenting adults. That's probably not what Paul was thinking about. Dynamic translation attempts to correct that. I've already agreed with you that Peterson may have gone too far with that, but I do believe he's on the right track. Today, I also question whether - in the context of that society - it was considered exploitation, though. That's imposing today's moral viewpoint (albeit a longstanding one in our culture) on to an ancient and foreign culture. It's also one of the challenging things involved in the process of dynamic translation. How does one translate not just from one language to another language (which is often difficult enough for those engaged in literal translation) but also from one culture to another culture and from one historical period to another historical period and have the text say essentially what it meant to the original readers? Difficult process.

The same is true of Bette's beloved Inclusive Bible. To eliminate patriarchal bias in contradiction of original intent may create a more politically correct meaning. But it contradicts authorial intent and raises the question of why progressives don't just invent their only Bible and ignore cultural makers of true meaning. To do so without making this ploy clear to the congregation is disingenuous to the max.

I cannot claim to be especially familiar with the Inclusive Bible, so can't comment on that.

 

[revsdd]

On to another topic for another week - although I did enjoy the give and take with Mystic over the last several days. Today I'm thinking about something a little less controversial - God's faithfulness to us even in the face of what is often our faithlessness to God, and I'm looking at Exodus 24:15, where the people grumble against Moses, although it could be any one of a number of passages in exodus where the people grumble against Moses.

My Faith Thoughts: A Thought For The Week Of July 31, 2017

 

[revjohn]

Lectionary tosses out the loaves and fishes story.

Thought it would be interesting to see what St. Anthony of Padua had to say about the subject since I am back in St. Anthony. While I am not a big fan of allegory I did find some food for thought in St. Anthony's use of it.

 

[Mystic]

On to another topic for another week - although I did enjoy the give and take with Mystic over the last several days. Today I'm thinking about something a little less controversial - God's faithfulness to us even in the face of what is often our faithlessness to God, and I'm looking at Exodus 24:15, where the people grumble against Moses, although it could be any one of a number of passages in exodus where the people grumble against Moses.

My Faith Thoughts: A Thought For The Week Of July 31, 2017

For me, one of the most enigmatic and provocation texts on God's faithfulness is the liturgical piece in 2 Timothy 2:11-13:
"Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him, we will also live with him;
12 if we endure, we will also reign with him.
If we disown him, he will also disown us.
13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself."

The statement in vs. 13, "If we disown Him, He will disown us," sounds so just, yet so cold and so final.
So the ensuing thought seems surprising: nevertheless, even as we are disowned, our just God must be true to His nature,
finding a way to be faithful and retain His status as the God of new beginnings.

 

[Luce NDs]

For me, one of the most enigmatic and provocation texts on God's faithfulness is the liturgical piece in 2 Timothy 2:11-13:
"Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him, we will also live with him;
12 if we endure, we will also reign with him.
If we disown him, he will also disown us.
13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself."

The statement in vs. 13, "If we disown Him, He will disown us," sounds so just, yet so cold and so final.
So the ensuing thought seems surprising: nevertheless, even as we are disowned, our just God must be true to His nature,
finding a way to be faithful and retain His status as the God of new beginnings.

Is how humanity disposed of wisdom ... as some powerful force in primary formation didn't wish to know? Sounds like a brutish god with destructive power ... runaway passions? Recall passions are somewhat intangible ... get some swear that passion is real ... while intelligence and thought are out ... supports the counterintuitive state of what we can get into without thought ...

Now you see IDe ...?

 

[unsafe]

unsafe says and posted scripture
In Exodus 15 we see the 2 sides of people ---When things are all well and good we praise God ----but when things turn Bitter we curse and complain about our condition and blame God -----

Exodus 15:19-25 (GNT)

The Song of Miriam
19 The Israelites walked through the sea on dry ground. But when the Egyptian chariots with their horses and drivers went into the sea, the Lord brought the water back, and it covered them.

20 The prophet Miriam, Aaron's sister, took her tambourine, and all the women followed her, playing tambourines and dancing. 21 Miriam sang for them:

“Sing to the Lord, because he has won a glorious victory;
he has thrown the horses and their riders into the sea.”

Bitter Water
22 Then Moses led the people of Israel away from the Red Sea into the desert of Shur. For three days they walked through the desert, but found no water. 23 Then they came to a place called Marah, but the water there was so bitter that they could not drink it. That is why it was named Marah 24 The people complained to Moses and asked, “What are we going to drink?” 25 Moses prayed earnestly to the Lord, and the Lord showed him a piece of wood, which he threw into the water; and the water became fit to drink.



unsafe says and posted scripture
God showed His Mercy many --many times in the Old Testament with His People ----but His people at times showed no Mercy toward God ----and we Christians are still like that today ----we Praise Him and Thank Him then we Blame Him ----

God hates when His Children complain -----murmur or grumble -----it causes which causes unneeded stress on our bodies which causes sickness and disease ----We forget all the things God did and does for us ----it rears down our faith ---it gives Satan access into our lives ----it gives poor testimony to others ---

For the True Christian complaining is dangerous --it can interfere with our relationship with God ----it blocks the flow of the good fruits that we are called to produce ----

1 Corinthians 10:10 (ERV)
10 And don’t complain as some of them did. Because they complained, they were killed by the angel that destroys.

1 Peter 4:9Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
9 Open your homes to each other and share your food without complaining.

 

[Luce NDs]

Did god create various scripts ... scattered across the globe as this character liked greater deviation than mankind who are fixed and cemented in place? These a re the parts of truth ... yet we cannot gather much from the dispersion ...

It does define limited though ... and mortal ... from which restrictive morals are drawn to clash with ethics ... causing ad continuum with the conflict bit ...

 

[unsafe]

This scripture Exodus 15:24 also shows how powerful God's Agape --Mercy and Grace is -----over and over God forgives and shows His Love --Mercy and Grace to His people when they disobey Him and deserve nothing from Him ----He never once totally abandons them for all their complaining and sinning ----after all He did for them they are the ones who abandon their Gracious God and put the blame on Him for their circumstances -----And we do the same today -----

Complaining comes from self centeredness ---pride and unbelief -----it is a heart issue ----and brings the curse on us

When we are tested through hard times God is testing our faithfulness --our trust and endurance toward Him -----to know that He alone has provided a way out for us so we pass the test --which builds our character and strengthens our endurance --our will so we are ready for the next test -----the Israelites failed their test miserably and we True Christians need to learn from this passage that we are to stay the course and Trust God who will see us through to our victory at the end -----All Glory is God's

As True Christians we are to Mature in our walk with Christ --it is hard work and takes much practice and most Christians don't want to be bothered to take the time it is to time consuming and to hard to stay the course -----we cave in and quit the process -----like the Israelites we like to complain about all kinds of different things ----and make no mistake --God hears them all -----

 

[BetteTheRed]

Unsafe, when you talk about the "the Israelites", how do you view them in relation to your shared (but very different) use of the Torah, to the Jewish faith today? Have you ever been to a synagogue to worship or learn or socialize?

 

[unsafe]

BetteTheRed -----Unsafe, when you talk about the "the Israelites", how do you view them in relation to your shared (but very different) use of the Torah, to the Jewish faith today?

Can't answer that because I don't follow the Jewish Faith today ------I am a follower of the way ---and all people today who have The Holy Spirit indwelling in them no matter what faith they are -they are the Israelites of today -----I do know that even today the Jews are waiting for the Messiah ----to come ---The Bible says That He came and died for all to reunite with Him if we so desire ----so this is what I believe ----He came --He delivered --He died and He rose so He could come again ----The words of the Bible still are in effect today and the word says that true Christians should not be complainers ----it displeases God ----

mes·si·ah
məˈsīə/
noun

1. 1.
   the promised deliverer of the Jewish nation prophesied in the Hebrew Bible.

The Jews believe He has not come jet ----from my understanding Jesus to them was a human Prophet not God ----- did they change their minds ---I have no idea ----

 

[Luce NDs]

The cracking continues ... you can almost hear the human mistakes as they befall us as begotten!

 

[revsdd]

I'm continuing to do some personal reading in the Book of Exodus. Parts of it are pretty heavy, and it's sometimes difficult to see the relevance. But I'd argue that all Scripture is relevant, and there are certainly gems that clearly reveal something of God's nature to us. So as I was reading through some of the laws in the middle chapters of Exodus which expanded on what we call the Ten Commandments, I was struck with Exodus 22:21-22

My Faith Thoughts: A Thought For The Week Of August 7, 2017

I'm on vacation for the next few weeks, so won't be writing any more until September. I've appreciated the feedback from those of you who have taken the time to offer it.

 

[Luce NDs]

Enjoy you journey into the unknown ... we don't know where!

 

[Jaebius]

I'm continuing to do some personal reading in the Book of Exodus. Parts of it are pretty heavy, and it's sometimes difficult to see the relevance. But I'd argue that all Scripture is relevant, and there are certainly gems that clearly reveal something of God's nature to us. So as I was reading through some of the laws in the middle chapters of Exodus which expanded on what we call the Ten Commandments, I was struck with Exodus 22:21-22

My Faith Thoughts: A Thought For The Week Of August 7, 2017

I'm on vacation for the next few weeks, so won't be writing any more until September. I've appreciated the feedback from those of you who have taken the time to offer it.

You're welcome Steven. Thank you for all the great writing. Have a good vacation.

 

[unsafe]

revsdd -----Have a great vacation ----I appreciated your taking the time to share your thoughts and posting them ----I enjoy your weekly devotional blogs ---will look forward to reading them again when you return