My Weekly Devotional

[Seeler]

There are consequences: consequences are not punishment.

 

[revjohn]

There are consequences: consequences are not punishment.

There are consequences. Consequences are not always punishments

 

[chansen]

There are consequences: consequences are not punishment.

Can we count any of the "consequences" as "unpleasant" or worse?

 

[airclean33]

Our God is a God of grace. To say that God is a God of rules introduces legalism - and Christianity is not (or should not be) legalistic.

--I am sorry Rev , But I do not agree with you. As a matter of fact I believe that teaching this is the reason of so many problems today. Where do you see our GOD say there is no more rule's anymore. Even Christ said He had not come to get rid of the Laws . But to fulfill them.

Mat 5:17"Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.
Mat 5:18For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.
Mat 5:17"Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.

Mat 5:18
For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.

 

[revsdd]

--I am sorry Rev , But I do not agree with you. As a matter of fact I believe that teaching this is the reason of so many problems today.[ Where do you see our GOD say there is no more rule's anymore. Even Christ said He had not come to get rid of the Laws . But to fulfill them.

I'm sorry, too, because you are working under a false understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I will pray that the Holy Spirit will open your eyes and your heart to an understanding of the gospel of grace that came with Jesus. It is legalism which is destroying the church by turning it into something that the church should not be; by making the church an arbiter of people's behaviour rather than an instrument of God's grace. I don't deny that legalistic churches often have many members - often more than non-legalistic churches. People love rules. Generally speaking they love rules more than they love God. Rules make faith easy. They reduce faith to a checklist. "I've done this and this and that," or "I haven't done this or this or that." It's very black and white. So people are attracted to that. Grace is much more difficult. It means relying - completely and totally - on God through Christ to forgive and redeem me when I screw up. That's hard. Most people choose the easy road. The easy road is the way of law, the hard road is the way of grace. The easy God to follow is the God of rules, the God who's hard to follow is the God of grace. Now, your Scripture references:

Mat 5:17"Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.
Mat 5:18For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.
Mat 5:17"Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.

Mat 5:18
For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.

Of course the law was accomplished and fulfilled by Jesus. The law having been accomplished and fulfilled it no longer has power. There is also the fact that the law Jesus is referring to is the law of Moses, which was given to Israel and not to the Gentile world. Gentiles live according to the law written on our hearts, as Paul says in Romans 2:15 and not the written law. The law written on our hearts is our conscience. We know right from wrong. It's not a matter of following "rules" - it's a matter of living according to your God-given conscience.

Now,
You asked for some Scripture references. I don't have time to give you an exhaustive list and commentary, but here are a few:

For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. (John 1:17)

For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. (Romans 6:14)

For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. (Galatians 2:19)

Bear one another’s burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ (Galatians 6:2)

For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. (Ephesians 2:14-15a)

 

[Luce NDs]

Hard laws make hard hearts ... and such desires further the cause of hardness ... causing reason and rational to retreat .. often observable in courts and rooms built to support Sagittarians and Pharisees ...

Breathable roué thus sags under the weight of the heavy handed ... without moderation or mellowing ... a god given decree from significance distance to create gaps, voids and fore thought ... before swallowing part of sol ...

 

[Seeler]

Can we count any of the "consequences" as "unpleasant" or worse?

Let's see:
God's law, one of the oldest and most important, is to love your neighbour as yourself.
A refugee family with five kids move into the house next door.
You smile and wave a greeting.
A few days later it snows. Your husband sees the boys out shoveling - he goes and blows out their driveway and chats with them discovering that some of the family know some English.
Spring comes - you plant your vegetable garden. The kids come and watch. You talk to them. The father comes over and helps you. Together you expand your garden.
The little kids watch you weeding. You pull three young carrots, hose them off, eat one yourself and give each child a carrot. Excited they run to show their mother.
The garden matures; you share the produce.
Next winter your husband's job keeps him away a lot; the teenage boys keep your driveway shoveled.
God smiles.

or
same situation at the beginning.
You ignor the family moving in.
You shout at their children when they stray onto your property.
You find two of the little ones eating your carrots. You march them home and shout and wave your arms at their mother, presuming that she can't understand you.
That evening the teenagers pull all your carrots, and trample everything else.
Yes, consecuences can be unpleasant (or worse)

 

[Luce NDs]

Let's see:
God's law, one of the oldest and most important, is to love your neighbour as yourself.
A refugee family with five kids move into the house next door.
You smile and wave a greeting.
A few days later it snows. Your husband sees the boys out shoveling - he goes and blows out their driveway and chats with them discovering that some of the family know some English.
Spring comes - you plant your vegetable garden. The kids come and watch. You talk to them. The father comes over and helps you. Together you expand your garden.
The little kids watch you weeding. You pull three young carrots, hose them off, eat one yourself and give each child a carrot. Excited they run to show their mother.
The garden matures; you share the produce.
Next winter your husband's job keeps him away a lot; the teenage boys keep your driveway shoveled.
God smiles.

or
same situation at the beginning.
You ignor the family moving in.
You shout at their children when they stray onto your property.
You find two of the little ones eating your carrots. You march them home and shout and wave your arms at their mother, presuming that she can't understand you.
That evening the teenagers pull all your carrots, and trample everything else.
Yes, consecuences can be unpleasant (or worse)

Or independently hit them with a bat ... some morning in the shadows they appear with multiple bays ... indiependants can't see this coming as consequence to a brutal leader into the situation ...

Some in the background, backsliding about getting the jump on aliens ... observe this as behaviour containing excess naiveté ... and thus it is lost in histrionics! What virtue can you teach a pickle ... or a person in it?

 

[chansen]

Let's see:
God's law, one of the oldest and most important, is to love your neighbour as yourself.
A refugee family with five kids move into the house next door.
You smile and wave a greeting.
A few days later it snows. Your husband sees the boys out shoveling - he goes and blows out their driveway and chats with them discovering that some of the family know some English.
Spring comes - you plant your vegetable garden. The kids come and watch. You talk to them. The father comes over and helps you. Together you expand your garden.
The little kids watch you weeding. You pull three young carrots, hose them off, eat one yourself and give each child a carrot. Excited they run to show their mother.
The garden matures; you share the produce.
Next winter your husband's job keeps him away a lot; the teenage boys keep your driveway shoveled.
God smiles.

or
same situation at the beginning.
You ignor the family moving in.
You shout at their children when they stray onto your property.
You find two of the little ones eating your carrots. You march them home and shout and wave your arms at their mother, presuming that she can't understand you.
That evening the teenagers pull all your carrots, and trample everything else.
Yes, consecuences can be unpleasant (or worse)

Man, you really had to stretch that one.

 

[Luce NDs]

Man, you really had to stretch that one.

Stories and myths are extensive as lies ... counterpoint?

 

[Waterfall]

Man, you really had to stretch that one.

I personally think Seeler's analogy was a beautiful response.

 

[Luce NDs]

Chansen is looking for something to espouse as extension to the indoctrinated ... and thus ID ghost ...

 

[Mendalla]

Let's see:
God's law, one of the oldest and most important, is to love your neighbour as yourself.
A refugee family with five kids move into the house next door.
You smile and wave a greeting.
A few days later it snows. Your husband sees the boys out shoveling - he goes and blows out their driveway and chats with them discovering that some of the family know some English.
Spring comes - you plant your vegetable garden. The kids come and watch. You talk to them. The father comes over and helps you. Together you expand your garden.
The little kids watch you weeding. You pull three young carrots, hose them off, eat one yourself and give each child a carrot. Excited they run to show their mother.
The garden matures; you share the produce.
Next winter your husband's job keeps him away a lot; the teenage boys keep your driveway shoveled.
God smiles.

or
same situation at the beginning.
You ignor the family moving in.
You shout at their children when they stray onto your property.
You find two of the little ones eating your carrots. You march them home and shout and wave your arms at their mother, presuming that she can't understand you.
That evening the teenagers pull all your carrots, and trample everything else.
Yes, consecuences can be unpleasant (or worse)

But ... how does this reflect a Christian worldview?

I agree with this scenario but to me it has absolutely nothing to do with God or a particular understanding of God. It's simply human relations in action and a humanist could just as easily believe it as you.

If we were going to look at it in religious terms, it sounds rather like karma to me. That's the Indian idea, found in Hinduism, Buddhism (and maybe Jainism, I forget) that our actions affect our lives, not only now but our future incarnations. So if I'm a farmer who abuses his animals in this life, I might be reborn as a farm animal in the next or I might die by being kicked by a horse or something. What goes around comes around, if you like. But that's impersonal. There is no divine judgement involved; it is simply a law of nature like gravity or the laws of motion. In fact, I think that in some traditions, even the gods are subject to it.

So how does your idea that what keeps us on the straight and narrow are the consequences of our actions (which are an impersonal force) jibe with following a religion that fairly clearly teaches, even in its scriptures, that there is a divine Judge who will mete out consequences for our actions (which is clearly a personal one)?

 

[Luce NDs]

The great weaver suggests some wobble or shuttle ... a taste of distaste will wake the almost departed sol .. as in the scheme of those practicing denial of distaste ... many despise alien word, allowing for strange gods if word is god, etc. !

 

[Waterfall]

But ... how does this reflect a Christian worldview?

I agree with this scenario but to me it has absolutely nothing to do with God or a particular understanding of God. It's simply human relations in action and a humanist could just as easily believe it as you.

If we were going to look at it in religious terms, it sounds rather like karma to me. That's the Indian idea, found in Hinduism, Buddhism (and maybe Jainism, I forget) that our actions affect our lives, not only now but our future incarnations. So if I'm a farmer who abuses his animals in this life, I might be reborn as a farm animal in the next or I might die by being kicked by a horse or something. What goes around comes around, if you like. But that's impersonal. There is no divine judgement involved; it is simply a law of nature like gravity or the laws of motion. In fact, I think that in some traditions, even the gods are subject to it.

So how does your idea that what keeps us on the straight and narrow are the consequences of our actions (which are an impersonal force) jibe with following a religion that fairly clearly teaches, even in its scriptures, that there is a divine Judge who will mete out consequences for our actions (which is clearly a personal one)?

Is there another belief system that offers grace even if we choose to disobey?

 

[Mendalla]

Is there another belief system that offers grace even if we choose to disobey?

Irrelevant to the issue of consequences. Does Grace remove unpleasant consequences? Does Grace have any tangible, verifiable effect as a positive or negative consequence? Because consequences are generally tangible and verifiable and do real good or harm that be seen/felt.

 

[chansen]

Is there another belief system that offers grace even if we choose to disobey?

And it comes down to this again - a bidding war among faiths. This becomes less about what you believe to be true (for whatever reason), and more about what you want your faith to offer you.

Irrelevant to the issue of consequences. Does Grace remove unpleasant consequences? Does Grace have any tangible, verifiable effect as a positive or negative consequence? Because consequences are generally tangible and verifiable and do real good or harm that be seen/felt.

Also, this.

 

[Waterfall]

Irrelevant to the issue of consequences. Does Grace remove unpleasant consequences? Does Grace have any tangible, verifiable effect as a positive or negative consequence? .

It can IMO, especially if we have learned from the teacher to offer it ourselves to others.

 

[Waterfall]

And it comes down to this again - a bidding war among faiths. This becomes less about what you believe to be true (for whatever reason), and more about what you want your faith to offer you.

There are some things to be learned from different religions, this one happens to be one of the focal points of Christianity.

 

[Mendalla]

It can IMO, especially if we have learned from the teacher to offer it ourselves to others.

But you don't need to learn that from Christ. Call it "Love" or "respect for inherent worth and dignity" or whatever, but it can learned and offered regardless of faith. That we can offer each other "Grace" is no evidence that that Grace has a divine origin. It's just a sign of the positive side of human nature.