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Kimmio Laughterlove said:
Socrates wouldn’t have condoned it.
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The last part of Socrates’ Defense:

”I'm not at all angry with those who voted against me, or with my accusers. All the same, that wasn't what was in their minds when they were voting against me and making their accusations. They did it thinking they were damaging me, and that's what they deserve to be blamed for. This much I ask of them: if my sons seem to you, when they reach puberty, to be caring about money or anything else before excellence, punish them, Athenians, by making them suffer in the very same way I used to make you suffer, and if they think they're something when they're not, reproach them as I have reproached you for not caring about the things they should and thinking they're something when they're not worth anything. If you do that, then I shall have had my just deserts from you, both for myself and for my sons. But now it is time for us to leave: for me, to go to my death, and for you to go on living. Whether it's you or I who are going to a better thing is clear to no one but the god.”
 
WhyCzar said:
The last part of Socrates’ Defense:

”I'm not at all angry with those who voted against me, or with my accusers. All the same, that wasn't what was in their minds when they were voting against me and making their accusations. They did it thinking they were damaging me, and that's what they deserve to be blamed for. This much I ask of them: if my sons seem to you, when they reach puberty, to be caring about money or anything else before excellence, punish them, Athenians, by making them suffer in the very same way I used to make you suffer, and if they think they're something when they're not, reproach them as I have reproached you for not caring about the things they should and thinking they're something when they're not worth anything. If you do that, then I shall have had my just desserts from you, both for myself and for my sons. But now it is time for us to leave: for me, to go to my death, and for you to go on living. Whether it's you or I who are going to a better thing is clear to no one but the god.”
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Great guy :oops: imagine a dad like that. How’d his kids turn out in a miserable environment like that? Maybe they hated him and turned out to be sh*ts or hopeless and depressed. Parents like that shouldn’t have children. Doesn’t seem any wiser than bible characters in that regard. Followed his passions to produce them, it can be assumed. Yet he’s revered.

we all need some money (material sustenance), even Socrates needed it to sustain his existence so he could think.
 
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WhyCzar said:
Athens—the most civilized city—put him on trial for "corrupting the youth" & impiety.

Real crime?

Asking people to think.

History repeats.
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Love depravation is mind depravation. He deprived children of the very thing they needed to be “excellent” thinkers who might build a less cruel world. I mean, if building a psychopathic world is your goal, building it without love will do it.
 
WhyCzar said:
And
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Yeah. Your point? Those things aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive.

Mine isn’t about greed for excessive wealth. In a caring society nobody would be homeless and without food, clothing, medicine, and education, for example. A little good cheer and a hug now and then doesn’t hurt either.

And those who weren’t gifted with potentially great minds or bodies - or were disabled - would still be loved and cared for. Life values life.
 
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Kimmio Laughterlove said:
Does Socrates deserve the honours he got?
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What honours? He was executed for "corrupting the youth". Funny honour. It's only because his pupil Plato used him as a mouthpiece that he gets the attention he does and you have to be very careful about what you take from that. There's more Plato than Socrates there save in maybe 3 or 4 dialogues and The Apology.
 
Mendalla said:
What honours? He was executed for "corrupting the youth". Funny honour. It's only because his pupil Plato used him as a mouthpiece that he gets the attention he does and you have to be very careful about what you take from that. There's more Plato than Socrates there save in maybe 3 or 4 dialogues and The Apology.
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I mean after he died he’s still revered. He was kind of an a-hole.
 
Kimmio Laughterlove said:
I mean after he died he’s still revered. He was kind of an a-hole.
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He was. But sometimes, being an a-hole is how you show people where they are wrong. His core premise, once you toss out all the Plato, is that if someone (including ourselves) claims to be knowledgeable about something, we should be asking questions to find the limits of that claimed knowledge. Hence, his teaching that the unquestioned life is not worth living (which I have used in a sermon before). And in ancient Athens, that came across as being an a-hole because it led him to corner people and ask pointed questions that often ended up showing that supposed experts knew less than they actually claimed to.

WhyCzar said:
Kind of like Paul & Jesus?
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Amen, brother. I have said it many times, the Christianity we have is the Christianity of Paul about Jesus, not the Christianity of Jesus. And that includes the Gospels since they postdate the letters.
 
Mendalla said:
He was. But sometimes, being an a-hole is how you show people where they are wrong. His core premise, once you toss out all the Plato, is that if someone (including ourselves) claims to be knowledgeable about something, we should be asking questions to find the limits of that claimed knowledge. Hence, his teaching that the unquestioned life is not worth living (which I have used in a sermon before). And in ancient Athens, that came across as being an a-hole because it led him to corner people and ask pointed questions that often ended up showing that supposed experts knew less than they actually claimed to.


Amen, brother. I have said it many times, the Christianity we have is the Christianity of Paul about Jesus, not the Christianity of Jesus. And that includes the Gospels since they postdate the letters.
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Is an unexamined life not worth living, though? The birds and the bees don’t do it. Some people don’t have the capacity…so eugenics is then ok? I posit that a life dedicated to such cruelty is not worth living, but it should be allowed to exist out of love (and then maybe the cruelty could be overcome).
 
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Mendalla said:
OTOH, do you want people just accepting the unquestioned "wisdom" or those who style themselves as gurus and leaders? Because that's really what he was getting at and what he practiced.
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No. But some people take it too far or they harass those without power, because they can, instead of challenging those at the top - they just mess whoever’s vulnerable enough to mess with. That may partly be a consequence of Socrates’ contributions to building the world we now have.
 
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