Meanwhile in Canada

[Mendalla]

However, without any rules humans just don’t seem to know how to come together and cooperate fairly for very long.

Bingo. Hence the fact that the Torah is largely composed of rules. And many other religious and philosophical texts (e.g. Confucius is mostly rules about how to live right). And the fact that the earliest known law codes date to the early Bronze Age, quite early in the history of settled living. Likely rules existed in the Neolithic and earlier, too. They just weren't written down, more matters of social convention handed down through teaching than "laws" as we think of them.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Bingo. Hence the fact that the Torah is largely composed of rules. And many other religious and philosophical texts (e.g. Confucius is mostly rules about how to live right). And the fact that the earliest known law codes date to the early Bronze Age, quite early in the history of settled living. Likely rules existed in the Neolithic and earlier, too. They just weren't written down, more matters of social convention handed down through teaching than "laws" as we think of them.

They have to be truly fair, not for superficial reasons, not tedious or excessive, for the common good, not more damaging, not disadvantaging to marginalized people, and arrived at through an equitable process. That’s a tall order but not impossible.

 

[Mendalla]

They have to be truly fair, not for superficial reasons, not tedious or excessive, for the common good, not more damaging, not disadvantaging to marginalized people, and arrived at through an equitable process. That’s a tall order but not impossible.

And there's the rub. Whoever writes those law codes or rules is going to have biases. In the ancient world, you generally had monarchies or oligarchies making the rules so they favoured hereditary, land-holding upper classes. The Jewish laws likely developed over time from a number of sources, including the kings but mainly the priests of Yahweh. So different biases but hardly geared to a just, equitable system.

Short of a more equitable representative democracy (direct democracy has historically not done well in the "not disadvantaging to marginalized people" front given it tends to be majority rules) than I think any country on Earth has right now, a truly fair, just, equitable law code is going to be hard to achieve. So I agree but that's going to be a hell of a slog. We and some Western European countries have some successes, the US has, too, but no one is really there yet. And it often two steps forward and one step back at best.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

And there's the rub. Whoever writes those law codes or rules is going to have biases. In the ancient world, you generally had monarchies or oligarchies making the rules so they favoured hereditary, land-holding upper classes. The Jewish laws likely developed over time from a number of sources, including the kings but mainly the priests of Yahweh. So different biases but hardly geared to a just, equitable system.

Short of a more equitable representative democracy (direct democracy has historically not done well in the "not disadvantaging to marginalized people" front given it tends to be majority rules) than I think any country on Earth has right now, a truly fair, just, equitable law code is going to be hard to achieve. So I agree but that's going to be a hell of a slog. We and some Western European countries have some successes, the US has, too, but no one is really there yet. And it often two steps forward and one step back at best.

Well there is one - the UNDHR and all its subcategories. It’s an excellent universal model that should be guiding its member countries’ laws.

 

[Mendalla]

Well there is one - the UNDHR and all its subcategories. It’s an excellent universal model that should be guiding its member countries’ laws.

Except that the member countries need to actually implement it and if anything, some are backing away from anything to do with the UN (hi, Donald!). There's nothing obligating them to, even the ones that did originally vote for it or signed on later.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Except that the member countries need to actually implement it and if anything, some are backing away from anything to do with the UN (hi, Donald!). There's nothing obligating them to, even the ones that did originally vote for it or signed on later.

I know. That’s because there’s a lot of corruption at the top, in probably all the countries, including ours - if they just ignore it, there’s something wrong with them. And if our lawmakers ignore it - if our laws don’t meet UN guidelines - our laws are corrupt.

 

[WhyCzar]

You are fiercely anti-government. That’s clear. We both want a better world and I think your approach is wrong. Can we just leave it at that?

I am not fiercely anti-government. I think your approach is wrong. Shall we leave it at that?

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I am not fiercely anti-government. I think your approach is wrong. Shall we leave it at that?

When you do this, it’s like you’re a kid with fingers in her ears, saying, “I know you are but what am I?” I lose interest in trying to have a discussion with you because you always take it here at some point.

 

[WhyCzar]

When you do this, it’s like you’re a kid with fingers in her ears, saying, “I know you are but what am I?” I lose interest in trying to have a discussion with you because you always take it here at some point.

I am not fiercely anti government.

I am reasonably anti BIG Government.

I am reasonably anti-collectivist.

Because the government is funded by taxation, and taxation is the forced confiscation of some of our property, as an individualist it seems reasonable to me that the government should at most perform tasks that defend and enable individual freedom.

Whether it be conservatism, progressivism, or socialism, collectivism involves the imposition of a certain belief or point of view on the rest of society.

A key tenet of collectivist ideologies is the willingness to use coercive means to promote a desired social or economic agenda.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I am not fiercely anti government.

I am reasonably anti BIG Government.

I am reasonably anti-collectivist.

Because the government is funded by taxation, and taxation is the forced confiscation of some of our property, as an individualist it seems reasonable to me that the government should at most perform tasks that defend and enable individual freedom.

Whether it be conservatism, progressivism, or socialism, collectivism involves the imposition of a certain belief or point of view on the rest of society.

A key tenet of collectivist ideologies is the willingness to use coercive means to promote a desired social or economic agenda.

You’re not reasonable though.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

edit

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

AI put this phenomenon into words for me:


While the original hippie movement was largely associated with collectivist ideals and communal living, there has been recent media discussion of a "hippie phase" emerging within some segments of the
U.S. Right that could be characterized as having anti-collectivist or individualistattitudes.
This recent phenomenon doesn't represent a single, self-identified group of "new anti-collectivist hippies," but rather a observed trend where some individuals on the right have adopted behaviors and attitudes reminiscent of 1960s counterculture, specifically:

• Skepticism toward authority and established institutions like traditional media, universities, and big business.
• A rejection of middle-class norms and a form of "anti-establishment" sentiment that mirrors the earlier counterculture's distrust of "the Establishment".
• A focus on individual freedom and a reaction against perceived social conformity.

The key distinction is that these attitudes are tied to an individualist or libertarian framework, rather than the communal and socialist/anarchist ideals (e.g., free stores, collective responsibility) of many original hippie communes. This has led to a perceived "role reversal" in political dynamics, where those who once championed order are now challenging institutions in a way previously associated with the left.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Me: Dangers of right wing individualism

AI:
Right-wing individualism often emphasizes personal responsibility, self-reliance, and minimal government intervention. While these principles can promote freedom and personal initiative, they also carry potential dangers:

1. **Social Fragmentation**: A strong focus on individualism can lead to a breakdown of community bonds, as people may prioritize personal success over collective well-being. This can result in social isolation and a lack of support systems.

2. **Neglect of Inequality**: Individualism may downplay systemic issues like poverty and discrimination, suggesting that everyone has equal opportunity to succeed. This perspective can ignore the structural barriers many face, perpetuating inequality.

3. **Erosion of Public Services**: Advocacy for minimal government often translates to reduced funding for public services, such as education and healthcare. This can disproportionately affect vulnerable populations who rely on these services.

4. **Misinformation and Polarization**: A strong emphasis on personal beliefs and experiences can lead to a rejection of expert opinions and scientific consensus, fostering misinformation and increasing polarization in society.

5. **Environmental Degradation**: Individual pursuits may prioritize short-term gains over long-term sustainability, contributing to environmental issues as individuals or corporations exploit resources without considering collective consequences.

6. **Increased Competition and Stress**: While competition can drive innovation, an extreme focus on individual success can lead to heightened stress, burnout, and mental health issues as people feel pressured to constantly outperform others.

7. **Potential for Authoritarianism**: In some contexts, individualism can lead to a rejection of collective governance and social responsibility, paving the way for authoritarian measures as people seek protection from perceived threats to individual freedoms.

These dangers illustrate the importance of balancing individual rights with collective responsibility to ensure a healthy and equitable society.

 

[Luce NDs]

No, because corruption starts lower down. It starts with humans looking for an advantage, for a chance to get ahead or enrich themselves. That gives them a motivation to undermine the social order to get that. It might be a different kind of corruption in an anarchic society, but there would be corruption. That would include what @Kimmio Laughterlove suggests, people trying to undermine the anarchy to gain power for themselves.

Glad to know it is initiated with the common, lesser status ... then ... does it rise well to the cause of marketing?

I once was told that everything was for sale (at a great price). If God resembles everything can parts be cut out and marketed is due hard (pious) form?

It seems this function is operating south of us as they fight over illegal orders of tyranny! That Hannah Arendt nailed it some time ago in a tome most forgotten ... so much is lost in the unknown of a great mind ...

Thus we are immersed in doctrines of induction rather than deduction as John was pulled from the pool ... 'ed less to say as his thoughts lost their agitation ... the aristocratic anarchy settled? Is that like something alien Putin or put out?

Probably neither as wee love to see the blood ... rather sang u in eh!
Always check those funny animal signs displayed on dead animal's kin ... may not be superficial! Hos subtly drole ... trolls?

There must be something down there ... much is converted from "nothing to fear"! That, to me, appears as trans substance in action ... or trans substantialism ... as substance moves into vapor as wood in a fire ... thus inquisition ova ... "where did it go?" The mass energy enigma ... a dilemma to many ... as they never even asked ...

Louis Armstrong addressed that as soul ... "if you got none you have to ask ..." smart man that one singing blues ... tis a sad song ... wondering where the thing went when getting into irrational emotions ... hais*tates?

 

[Luce NDs]

Mores to look intu ...

 

[Luce NDs]

Good things do too. The whole MO of corruption is to gain unfair advantage to climb up though. It makes sense that if the ladder itself is corrupt you’ll find the most corruption at the top. However, without any rules humans just don’t seem to know how to come together and cooperate fairly for very long.

It is a root problem that suits the nature of the nightshade family that covers a lot of the celery and fennel group ... having farm values as sometime pharmaceutically innate! As Rhodes ... so it goes that other roue ... different eh? It is quite a stretch or expanse to get there from here ... then you 're out --Red B would shout: "go way with yah!"

Constantine crossed that line ... a lengthy story ...

 

[Luce NDs]

Bingo. Hence the fact that the Torah is largely composed of rules. And many other religious and philosophical texts (e.g. Confucius is mostly rules about how to live right). And the fact that the earliest known law codes date to the early Bronze Age, quite early in the history of settled living. Likely rules existed in the Neolithic and earlier, too. They just weren't written down, more matters of social convention handed down through teaching than "laws" as we think of them.

Does give the dogma something to chew and crank about ...

 

[Luce NDs]

I am not fiercely anti government.

I am reasonably anti BIG Government.

I am reasonably anti-collectivist.

Because the government is funded by taxation, and taxation is the forced confiscation of some of our property, as an individualist it seems reasonable to me that the government should at most perform tasks that defend and enable individual freedom.

Whether it be conservatism, progressivism, or socialism, collectivism involves the imposition of a certain belief or point of view on the rest of society.

A key tenet of collectivist ideologies is the willingness to use coercive means to promote a desired social or economic agenda.

With the big ideas lawmakers get there has to be a largesse in governing them ... and there the wee people lose it and fall out ... the old case of the Pharisees and Sadducees causing hell in the hadron once known as the hedonist hai Semitic rooms hanging over the desert ... Sanhedrin, or without adequate head room as they lost it over the pleasures of seeing the neighbor sinking out of the tree (the apple thing)? Space science as a vision ... some do dream about getting out ...

 

[Luce NDs]

You’re not reasonable though.

The key is totally free irrationality ... so one can experience going wrong ways! --- Scott Peck in the road less travelled, because it has thin reason). It is a peck 've word ...

 

[WhyCzar]

These dangers illustrate the importance of balancing individual rights with collective responsibility to ensure a healthy and equitable society.

The individualist tolerates differences. The collectivist demands conformity.