Luke 6: A Verse (or Two) at a Time

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jimkenney12 said:
Choice between believing in a control focused arbitrary god or a loving god.
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Eclectic scatter ... one of those cosmological spread theories? Really shocking ... a wake up, WOKE, or apo s trophy ... apos tall IHC? That'sallient ... it rested for a bit ... bite and many chewed ... the implications are profound ... if you can dig ide ... that's word ... it penetrates ... where some things never go ...
 
Waterfall said:
Really? Because God can't defend Himself?
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It's not the only objection Jews have to Christianity. Some of them consider us to be polytheistic because we have the concept of the Trinity.

To be fair, though, this could represent a certain amount of hyperbole on their part. I was looking at Jews For Judaism which has been set up to oppose Jews For Jesus and other Messianic groups.

None of the Jewish movements (Orthodox, Reform etc) consider Messianic Jews to be legitimate. They consider them apostate Jews who have become Christians.

But I am getting off topic.

I actually think many Christians believe God's character to be different in our Old and New Testaments.
 
Waterfall said:
Really? Because God can't defend Himself?
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Because it's not really true? Sure it is in places, but there's also much more nuanced views when you get into the Prophets and wisdom books. And I think it is on God's followers to defend what they believe about God because he's not about to show up and engage in theological debates (well, save that one time in 1st century CE Palestine :sneaky:).
 
Mendalla said:
Muslims have issues with the Trinity, too. In fact, their view of the Oneness of God with Jesus as an important Prophet is rather similar to Unitarian Christianity.
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Except that Muslims accept Jesus' virgin birth.

jimkenney12: "The nine who did not come back were Jews who did exactly what Jesus told them to do, go to the temple. The tenth, The Samaritan, was not allowed to go to the temple, so he went back to Jesus. He should not have been surprised by the nine not coming back."

The 9 are reproached for not returning to Jesus precisely because they forgot to express gratitude for their healing. At its core Christianit.y is a religion of grace and gratitude, not of mechanically doing one's duty. Only the hated Samaritan displays the correct instinct on this matter.
 
Mystic said:
Except that Muslims accept Jesus' virgin birth.
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Yes this is the traditional view. However, they don't consider that the virgin birth makes Jesus divine or the son of God. It points to Jesus as a prophet.

Mystic said:
The 9 are reproached for not returning to Jesus precisely because they forgot to express gratitude for their healing.
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Yes and this behaviour is contrasted with the Samaritan who is described as a foreigner.
 
Mystic said:
Except that Muslims accept Jesus' virgin birth.
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But as P3 says, they do not regard it as a sign of Jesus' divinity, but of his status as a Prophet. The Absolute Unity of God is central to their theology and this does not allow for a "Son of God" in a literal sense and they quite explicitly reject any notion of the Christian Trinity. Which is what aligns their view with Unitarian Christianity.

From the Qu'ran, Surah 4:171:

O People of the Book! Do not go to extremes regarding your faith; say nothing about Allah except the truth.1 The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was no more than a messenger of Allah and the fulfilment of His Word through Mary and a spirit ˹created by a command˺ from Him.2 So believe in Allah and His messengers and do not say, “Trinity.” Stop!—for your own good. Allah is only One God. Glory be to Him! He is far above having a son! To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And Allah is sufficient as a Trustee of Affairs.
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From the Qu'ran, Surah 5:72-73:

Those who say, “Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary,” have certainly fallen into disbelief. The Messiah ˹himself˺ said, “O Children of Israel! Worship Allah—my Lord and your Lord.” Whoever associates others with Allah ˹in worship˺ will surely be forbidden Paradise by Allah. Their home will be the Fire. And the wrongdoers will have no helpers.

Those who say, “Allah is one in a Trinity,” have certainly fallen into disbelief. There is only One God. If they do not stop saying this, those who disbelieve among them will be afflicted with a painful punishment.
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paradox3 said:
Yes this is the traditional view. However, they don't consider that the virgin birth makes Jesus divine or the son of God. It points to Jesus as a prophet.
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Of course. I taught a university course in comparative religion. I find it odd that strict monotheists would embrace a doctrine that so often establishes divinity in antiquity and never merely establishes prophetic credentials.
 
Mystic said:
Of course. I taught a university course in comparative religion. I find it odd that strict monotheists would embrace a doctrine that so often establishes divinity in antiquity and never merely establishes prophetic credentials.
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I don't find it that odd (FYI, I took an undergrad course on Islam, still have the Qu'ran interpretation from that course, and have Muslims in the family). To them it's a miracle or intervention, a sign of divine favour. It's done by God to Mary and is a sign of God's blessing on Mary and Jesus. So much the same as Jesus' miraculous healings being a sign of Jesus' divinity, not the recipient's divinity. Makes sense to me. Really, Muslim theology is often a lot simpler and more sensible than the gyrations needed to make sense of a MONOtheist God being a TRInity.

I am really not disciplined enough to be a good Muslim (it's very much a practice/works-based faith) but in some ways, it's probably a good fit for me. Same could be said for Buddhism (though Buddhism might be an even better fit).
 
And we should probably get back to poor old Luke. We're kind of neglecting him in favour of Muhammad. :giggle:
 
It's interesting, is it not, that the moral imperatives of the Ten Commandments include keeping the Sabbath Day holy? It almost seems out of place with the other nine rules.

I recall reading an author who made great fun of the concept. "How can one particular day be holier than other spaces of time?" he argued. (This was either Robert Ingersoll or John Spong, I seem to remember)

We tend to look at present day Jewish observance of Sabbath as quite restrictive. But many Jewish people will tell you it is a wonderful gift with a multitude of blessings.

Anyways, back to Luke. Tomorrow we arrive at the actual healing which is going to really tick off the Pharisees.
 
paradox3 said:
Present day Judaism objects to us characterizing the God of their Tanakh as arbitrary and controlling.
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I believe there was purpose for everything demanded by God in the Hebrew scriptures, purpose related to community and individual well being. Too many people past and present are arbitrary in which rules they choose to lift up as weapons against others making God in their image. The Pharisees were people like this.
 
jimkenney12 said:
I believe there was purpose for everything demanded by God in the Hebrew scriptures, purpose related to community and individual well being.
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All of the 613 laws, do you think?

jimkenney12 said:
Too many people past and present are arbitrary in which rules they choose to lift up as weapons against others making God in their image.
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The early Christian communities tossed put so many of God's ordinances from the Tanakh.

Was St Paul arbitrary in tossing out circumcision, would you say? Just as an example.
jimkenney12 said:
The Pharisees were people like this.
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Maybe.
 
Mystic said:
Except that Muslims accept Jesus' virgin birth.

jimkenney12: "The nine who did not come back were Jews who did exactly what Jesus told them to do, go to the temple. The tenth, The Samaritan, was not allowed to go to the temple, so he went back to Jesus.
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Mystic said:
Only the hated Samaritan displays the correct instinct on this matter.
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It seems the Samaritans follow a different version of the Torah.
One of the main differences between the Samaritans(Jews?) and the Jews is the site they say God chose for his Temple.
The Samaritans say God chose Mount Gerizim (Biblical Mount Moriah) in Shechem for his holy dwelling and the Jews say it is Mount Zion in Jerusalem.
So technically, he could have went on to the Temple.
 
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paradox3 said:
We tend to look at present day Jewish observance of Sabbath as quite restrictive.
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Well, it DOES interfere with Free Market Capitalism...

Personally I miss Sundays off

The Hamlet where I currently live a lot of the businesses here take 2 days off. That is much more sensible to me than working yourself to death

Also it does fit in with the dominant metaphysic of Materialism-Naturalism, where consciousness is an epiphenomenon and we human beings are robot meat bags with no free will lol

And so it goes

(as to why would one time be more sacred than another time? Various days of the week and times in different cultures can be celebrated for different reasons...recall that even in Canada, we name our Months and Days after pagan Deities or Festivals...also I have been in several pagan ceremonies when they are sure to seperate the space to make it sacred and then to "desacred" it after the ceremony is over...plus all of existence can be sacred and still the Sabbath can be sacred etc etc etc.)

ty for the thot knocking loose there, Contrary Cubed :3
 
Waterfall said:
It seems the Samaritans follow a different version of the Torah.
One of the main differences between the Samaritans(Jews?) and the Jews is the site they say God chose for his Temple.
The Samaritans say God chose Mount Gerizim (Biblical Mount Moriah) in Shechem for his holy dwelling and the Jews say it is Mount Zion in Jerusalem.
So technically, he could have went on to the Temple.
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The Samaritans book is the Samaritan Pentateuch.
 
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