Liberal Christian denominations

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BetteTheRed said:
No, I'm not sure about the 75% vote thing. Our vote (secret) was unanimous. Now, do I think possibly a couple of people "didn't show up to church" so they wouldn't have to vote? Sure.



And the sole non-Affirming congregation here DOES NOT have an equal marriage policy. Like I said, same church that's never managed to call a female minister.
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That's what I said - that's a logical equivalence. If you don't have an equal marriage policy, you're probably not Affirming. And if you are Affirming you probably do have an equal marriage policy. But just because you're not Affirming doesn't mean that you don't have an equal marriage policy. That third one is the disconnect. I've seen a couple of posts in this thread that seem to suggest that if you have an equal marriage policy you should therefore be Affirming because it's basically the same thing. Not necessarily. There are reasons that a congregation might choose not to go through the Affirming process that have nothing to do with being opposed to same sex marriage of inclusion of LGBTQ folk in church life.
 
revsdd said:
There are reasons that a congregation might choose not to go through the Affirming process that have nothing to do with being opposed to same sex marriage of inclusion of LGBTQ folk in church life.
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And, I would add, that criticizing a congregation that is LGBTQ friendly and has an open marriage policy for not being Affirming without first investigating why is armchair quarterbacking of the worst kind IMHO.
 
Criticizing or wondering? I can think of two reasons off the top of my head, the latter trivial, IMHO. The first is one we shared at the very beginning of the process (and we were the first Affirming congregation in town, so piloted the process), and that was a deep worry that somehow, through this, that one of our LGBTQ congregants (and two of our four VAMs are gay, so they're pretty well-established in our family) would end up getting hurt in some fashion. The second was that it costs $100 a year to belong. In these penny-pinching days, I guess that could be significant for some congregations.
 
BetteTheRed said:
The second was that it costs $100 a year to belong. In these penny-pinching days, I guess that could be significant for some congregations.
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Saving $100 a year seems a bit trivial unless you're really riding close to failure or have a balanced budget requirement (which I've never heard of a church having, TBH). Agree on the first reason, though, as I did with the ones Steven cited earlier.
 
And perhaps if the Affirming congregations reach a "critical mass", then LGBTQ people in congregations won't feel "special", but just that they've been formally invited to the table.

I'd also recommend the Affirming process to any congregation for another significant reason. Although its raison d'etre is LGBTQ inclusion, the work that Affirm United has done has been broader than that, and encourages widening the scope of the Affirming process itself, by identifying other potentially excluded groups in the congregation. We had conversations about adopted kids versus bio kids, about inclusion of the mentally ill, about some of the special needs of our autistic community, about the hidden illiterate in our midst.
 
All good conversations to have. So many people get left out for various reasons.

Some congregations just don't seem to be open to talking about things like this though.

Privilege is a thing that is accepted as a right by those who have it.
 
Well, the difference between formally affirming and formally accepting or not accepting is confusing.

If a new to town or new to church couple were to do a search of affirming congregations, because they're named, as safe places, then the ones that aren't would get missed.


LGBT affirmation shouldn't be the sole reason for the church to exist, but it's not anyway. Any more than ordination of women is the sole reason for the church to exist. And possibly under 75% support in so many places surprises me because that isn't the perception.
 
Mendalla said:
And, I would add, that criticizing a congregation that is LGBTQ friendly and has an open marriage policy for not being Affirming without first investigating why is armchair quarterbacking of the worst kind IMHO.
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I am investigating why. I don't know which congregations are not affirming. If a gay couple who was moving to wherever, was interested in the UCCan wanted to know I think the best way is to check who is affirming because that is what the UCCan and other mainline denominations call it. Also, if a non-LGBT newcomer, who is an LGBT ally, they would also be more likely to look up and join affirming churches, I would think. Rather than look up individual marriage policies. I don't think its armchair quarterbacking. When I see rainbows, I think "affirming". so, if I were to go to one and miss reading the marriage policy, I might end up in a place whose policies I don't support if I don't check "affirming" or "not affirming but fully accepting". Also, I think those who have been through the process might feel safer if I were LGBT, and new. I did not know they were not the same thing. So it's confusing. The UCCan is huge and these differences between congregations can be confusing.
 
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what it comes down to is I thought that affirming and having an open marriage policy were the same thing. And since the UCCan moved to begin to become affirming 18 years ago, I thought that there were only a few left that were not, and only a few that likewise didn't have open marriage policies. It isn't clear.
 
Kimmio said:
what it comes down to is I thought that affirming and having an open marriage policy were the same thing. And since they moved to become affirming 18 years ago, I thought that there were only a few that were not, and only a few that likewise didn't have open marriage policies. It isn't clear.
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Like many things in the UCCan.
 
I just want to point something out. A google search of "affirming denominations", brings up this list.
List of Christian denominations affirming LGBT - Wikipedia

Now, I realize Wikipedia is not the most reliable source, but it is relied upon, and I would guess that all of us has looked stuff up on Wikipedia.

I noticed that each listed affirming denomination, if there is something to clarify about their position, has a little clarifying blurb beside its listing. Even little obscure denominations nobody's heard of. The biggest mainline denomination in Canada has no clarifying blurb. So, if I were looking for fully affirming congregations, I would assume they are fully affirming and their position doesn't need clarifying. The assumption of whoever put it on the list is that their position doesn need clarifying. It seems to me that the public presumption among non-UCCan folks is that being affirming, and welcoming full participation of LGBT people, including marriage, are the same thing.
 
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Kimmio said:
I just want to point something out. A google search of "affirming denominations", brings up this list.
List of Christian denominations affirming LGBT - Wikipedia

Now, I realize Wikipedia is not the most reliable source, but it is relied upon, and I would guess that all of us has looked stuff up on Wikipedia.

I noticed that each listed affirming denomination, if there is something to clarify about their position, has a little clarifying blurb beside its listing. Even little obscure denominations nobody's heard of. The biggest mainline denomination in Canada has no clarifying blurb. So, if I were looking for fully affirming congregations, I would assume they are fully affirming and their position doesn't need clarifying. The assumption of whoever put it on the list is that their position doesn need clarifying. It seems to me that the public presumption among non-UCCan folks is that being affirming, and welcoming full participation of LGBT people, including marriage, are the same thing.
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It's Wikipedia. Who knows who wrote the thing and put the United Church on it. It could have been anyone. But now the biggest mainline denomination in Canada has a clarifying blurb.
 
Affirming is not just some program the United Church invented. There is not an official process that is the same across all affirming denominations. It's, as related to churches, synonymous with being welcoming and inclusive of LGBTQ people. Yes, Christianity-wide affirming means welcoming and inclusive of LGBTQ people. That's the perception.
 
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Kimmio said:
Yeah, and though they may be incorrect at times, maybe a lot, Wikipedia is influential.
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Wikipedia is not a sound reference Cousin. It isn't accepted academically. Anyone can put anything on it. I could add the Fellowship to the list, when certainly it is not.
 
I realize that and said so - it is not reliable, but it is relied upon - for quick reference, regardless (unfortunately that is the case). Nevertheless, it does (or did before revsdd updated it) reflect the public perception that UCCan is all affirming (whether that was the writer's or readers' perceptions).
 
What I think is missing from the discussion is that Liberal Christian denominations seat power differently than Conservative Christian denominations.

It isn't necessarily a governance issue. You can find it faster at a governance level.

So, since there is a fair amount of power given to congregations to define norms within the UCCAN we qualify as liberal. Even though some individual congregations will be quite conservative with respect to change.

In that respect we are not a one size fits all operation like McDonalds. Consumers still need to shop around and not all locations participate in the same promotions.

We aren't the Uniform Church of Canada.
 
revjohn said:
In that respect we are not a one size fits all operation like McDonalds. Consumers still need to shop around and not all locations participate in the same promotions.
We aren't the Uniform Church of Canada.
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Offer available only at participating locations.
 
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