Liberal Christian denominations

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GiancarloZ said:
Tillich, Barth, the Niebuhr brothers, Moltmann and even Bultmann can be great sources of faithful witness to the Church and faith formation for individuals. They are orthodox yet they leave room for questioning, for doubt, for wondering...
Torrance can be a good link between the German and the Anglo-Saxon Protestant Theology.
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In isolated orthodoxy is linking allowed?

Dissociation seems to be extracted as a powerful singularity ... single tracking dissemination and then they cut out of the rest of the greater story of the whole thing ...
 
Luce NDs said:
In isolated orthodoxy is linking allowed?
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I don't think so. The orthodox Protestant tend to consider that nothing can be done outside the 16th-century Confessions, i.e. Calvin and/or Luther.
 
GiancarloZ said:
Melanchthon and the ones in his line after him shaped what most of Lutheranism looks like today, as he was much more Reformed leaning than Luther. I just don't appreciate his low view of the Sacraments, which wasn't the case of Calvin but Zwingli.
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Surely Melanchthon had a higher view of the sacraments than did Zwingli. At my Baptist church we have a low view - seeing baptism and Communion as not sacraments but rather ordinances - symbols that we are meant to continue on with.
 
GiancarloZ said:
I don't think so. The orthodox Protestant tend to consider that nothing can be done outside the 16th-century Confessions, i.e. Calvin and/or Luther.
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Yet we worship the word as god for ... a means of communication in communities that need such meditative tools?

Some retreat to shouting, and missal drivers ... hard words? A story seems to penetrate the unknown and unseen ... however that's an unorthodox concept!

Causes great conflicts in some sol ...
 
Hi Giancarlo,

I have appreciated your insights. Full agreement on this point:
GiancarloZ said:
What I see, though, is that congregations are much more important than the denomination.
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It seems plain that Jesus is more concerned about the well being of folk living in the diverse villages than in the well being of the temple economy in Jerusalem.

Just now the UCC seems much more occupied with institutional norms and standards than with the well being of persons and communities.

Wishing you well as you journey from where you are to the place God has in mind for you. Grace and peace be with you and yours!

George
 
GeoFee said:
Just now the UCC seems much more occupied with institutional norms and standards than with the well being of persons and communities.
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Might that be because of ...
  • The Act of Parliament that created The United Church of Canada in 1925.
Congregations themselves are not corporations and at least have some independent legal status under that act ...

Because the congregation 'itself' has the leeway to act within their community as they deem appropriate and are not legally bound by the parliamentary mandated institutional norms of their corporate denomination ...

I too agree - without an independent congregation - the institution is just another arm of government looking for tax breaks - I would not become a card carrying member of the UCC any more than I would voluntarily become a card carrying member of any political organization - whether they call themselves liberal or not.
 
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Hi,

Moltmann made a lasting impression. Here is an example of an insight that animates much of my thought and action:

“Because of Christ's prevenient and unconditional invitation, the fellowship of the table cannot be restricted to people who are 'faithful to the church', or to the 'inner circle' of the community. For it is not the feast of the particularly righteous, of the people who think that they are particularly devout; it is the feast of the weary and heavy-laden, who have heard the call to refreshment.” from "The Church in the Power of the Spirit."​

For the whole of my adult life I have witnessed the table of communion be employed as a ritual of inclusion. Participation requiring assent and conformity with doctrinal assertions, based on interpretations of our text and tradition. This serving assorted priesthoods very well. Protestant priesthoods as well as Catholic. The whole matter of clericalism. Something every seminary student must understand to meet academic requirements. Yet few are made aware of their own complicity.

A repeated imagery of the biblical narratives notices the problem of prostitution. Doing for money what ought to be done for love. This rooted deep in Hobbesian soil. Money being the means for obtaining security today and for the days to come. Money being the source of worth and honour. It's lack indicating the lack of worth and honour. All this spelled out in great detail. Does our society not venerate the rich and famous? And turn away from the sight of the broken poor by our gates?

I care little for the distinction of liberal and conservative. My life's experience has had me engaged in both perspectives. In and among both I have found persons with character revealing the teaching of Jesus. I have also found the contrary in either camp. For me no bird can fly with one wing. Looking to my own biology I notice a left and right hand. Each animated by the heart's circulation of blood. Each offering service to the body of which they are members. Our ecclesial decline seems to be rooted in the principles of accusation and division. Generally expressed as I and mine are correct but you and yours are in error. This in the light of: "There is none righteous, no not one."

One more Moltmann quote:

“When the fear of death leaves us, the destructive craving for life leaves us too. We can then restrict our desires and our demands to our natural requirements. The dreams of power and happiness and luxury and far-off places, which are used to create artificial wants, no longer entice us. They have become ludicrous. So we shall use only what we really need, and shall no longer be prepared to go along with the lunacy of extravagance and waste.” from "The Power of the Powerless"​

A new reality is waiting in the wings, hoping to be chosen over the hubristic trajectory we now experience. As it is written: "Multitudes, multitudes, in the valley of decision."

George

Last word to Joshua:

“Now therefore fear the Lord, and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness; put away the gods which your fathers served beyond the River, and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. And if you be unwilling to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”​

 
monk said:
Because the congregation 'itself' has the leeway to act within their community as they deem appropriate and are not legally bound by the parliamentary mandated institutional norms of their corporate denomination ...
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Our congregations are legally bound by plenty of institutional norms . . . And the oversight of Presbytery, of course.
 
In my opinion, the old Scarborough Presbytery really dropped the ball.

But honestly, so did the congregation at West Hill.

The entire matter could have been resolved years ago. One way or another.

Rumour has it that Vosper is out on a stress leave right now. This has been hard on her, too.
 
paradox3 said:
Yes, I know. There was one inadequate (in my view) pastoral oversight visit in that period.
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"One?" Really p3?

One of the strengths of a church like mine that operates with a congregational polity is that it can deal with things much more swiftly. If we dislike the direction our pastor has gone in, we can always vote him out.
 
Jae said:
"One?" Really p3?

One of the strengths of a church like mine that operates with a congregational polity is that it can deal with things much more swiftly. If we dislike the direction our pastor has gone in, we can always vote him out.
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Yes. But keep in mind the congregation at West Hill had options it did not exercise. For a variety of reasons.
 
Yes, there was a significant core of people at West Hill who, from what I understand, were actually looking for the direction that Gretta offered. And who remain happy with it. It seems to be a bit of a dilemma. Less so in Toronto, where it's usually easy enough, and fairly close, to find another congregation.
 
GeoFee said:
Hi Giancarlo,

I have appreciated your insights. Full agreement on this point:
It seems plain that Jesus is more concerned about the well being of folk living in the diverse villages than in the well being of the temple economy in Jerusalem.

Just now the UCC seems much more occupied with institutional norms and standards than with the well being of persons and communities.

Wishing you well as you journey from where you are to the place God has in mind for you. Grace and peace be with you and yours!

George
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George, first of all, thank you for your welcoming and wishes, which are reciprocal.

Regarding the denomination vs. congregation, it's odd but one needs the other and the balance is always delicate and hard to find. At least it seems like it, especially in churches that embrace different visions and theologies as it's the case for UCCan and the vast majority of Mainline churches (mine included).
 
BetteTheRed said:
Yes, there was a significant core of people at West Hill who, from what I understand, were actually looking for the direction that Gretta offered. And who remain happy with it. It seems to be a bit of a dilemma. Less so in Toronto, where it's usually easy enough, and fairly close, to find another congregation.
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Yes, either looking for it or willing to go along with it.

At least half of the congregation left . . . some estimates are up to two thirds.

True enough, it was easy enough for the departees to find other nearby congregations that suited them better. But there was significant pain involved for all. I don't think this should be swept under the rug.
 
GiancarloZ said:
George, first of all, thank you for your welcoming and wishes, which are reciprocal.

Regarding the denomination vs. congregation, it's odd but one needs the other and the balance is always delicate and hard to find. At least it seems like it, especially in churches that embrace different visions and theologies as it's the case for UCCan and the vast majority of Mainline churches (mine included).
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Yes Giancarlo, I suppose that's true, whereas evangelical churches such as my own tend to emphasize the local congregation over the denomination. Indeed, my "denomination" is really a federation of like-minded churches.
 
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