Liberal Christian denominations

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chansen said:
Let me see...

...divine cosmos....self-driven....

Ah, here it is. And for that, you get...

..."Lake of Fire"

Sorry.
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I don't think Dave believes in "Lake of Fire" so I'll see what he says. In fact, even in my UCCan days in the eighties, a survey showed that a majority of members didn't believe in a literal Hell so that's hardly a new "progressive" thing.
 
I'm aware. I just like to tell you that you're in for it as much as I am, so stop trying to be so nice about it. If they're right, you're still screwed, so have some fun with it.
 
chansen said:
I'm aware. I just like to tell you that you're in for it as much as I am, so stop trying to be so nice about it. If they're right, you're still screwed, so have some fun with it.
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I don't even think about heaven and hell anymore unless someone else brings them up. Not part of my paradigm, not worth worrying about.
 
Dave Henderson said:
The United Church of Canada certainly does have a firm set of beliefs. And the primary one is a belief in God. The nature of God is something that might vary widely within our denomination, but belief in that God, no matter how she or he might be perceived is the rock we stand on. The same applies to the triune God. God has revealed him/herself to us in three different ways; how we perceive those ways many differ, but they too are bedrock beliefs.
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Agree with you about beliefs as expressed in our statements of faith. But many (how many I am not sure) in the denomination are pushing for change in this regard.
 
KayTheCurler said:
That sounds 'just ducky' as my late Nana used to say. When the seeker, inquirer, explorer, has radically different ideas from you where will that lead them? I suspect it will lead them out of the congregation as they see that they are a committee of one, that their style of seeking is considered unacceptable as it doesn't constantly reference 'God'.

Another major problem arises if they share that they are seeking a community of (mostly) caring people. People who are energised by new ideas. People who love other people. People who have explored various forms of centering and feel comfortable talking about their experiences. People who don't recoil in horror when another person shares their meditation technique, their yoga exercise, their fascination with visionaries/mystics of various traditions.

My life experience has shown me that these seekers aren't really wanted in churches of any denomination. They may however, accept people who have the same relationship with 'the divine' now they are seventy, that they had when they were seven.
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You are absolutely right Kay. And that is my point. We must engage with folks without getting bent out of shape by their beliefs, while talking with passion and respect about our beliefs. Having said that, church is a spiritual experience. If folks are looking for community and relationships, they should expect people experiencing deep spiritual moments and a spiritual milieu. We are, after all, communities of faith.
 
Dave Henderson said:
Having said that, church is a spiritual experience. If folks are looking for community and relationships, they should expect people experiencing deep spiritual moments and a spiritual milieu. We are, after all, communities of faith.
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Nicely put. The spiritual part is, for me, what sets a church apart. I can join any number of clubs, associations, etc. to get community and relationships. I can join charitable and such groups to do good works. Where church stands apart is the spiritual element. Now, IMHO, spiritual does not have to mean faith in God or other supernatural elements (it can, but it does not have to), just an interest in engaging with existence on a deeper level.
 
paradox3 said:
Agree with you about beliefs as expressed in our statements of faith. But many (how many I am not sure) in the denomination are pushing for change in this regard.
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At the end of his life, Joshua stood before his fellow believers and called the question: "Choose today who you will serve. As for me and my house, we will serve God." The United Church of Canada is a Christian denomination. I sense at this time in the church' s very short history the same question is being asked. I joyfully declare that I serve God. Others may choose not to serve God and choose to leave the faith community. Perhaps the church will decide it is no longer a Christian community and it will be people like me will leave the community. Either way, the question still needs to be asked.
 
Dave Henderson said:
You are absolutely right Kay. And that is my point. We must engage with folks without getting bent out of shape by their beliefs, while talking with passion and respect about our beliefs. Having said that, church is a spiritual experience. If folks are looking for community and relationships, they should expect people experiencing deep spiritual moments and a spiritual milieu. We are, after all, communities of faith.
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yep. Kinda what I said earlier - talking about spiritual experiences isn't on the radar of most church people. Many of them still cling to a security blanket they earned at Sunday School. I would have enjoyed participating in such discussions but no one in the churches was interested. My point is - these church relationships rarely include spiritual moments .

Once I met a UCCAN minister and had a fascinating conversation about beliefs, hers and mine. I was favourably impressed . When I asked how her beliefs were received by the pew sitters on Sundays she looked horrified and said she didn't tell them her true beliefs, she preached the time honoured old line. It reminded me of all the other times when a Christian in a position of authority told me firmly that I was wrong. To be a Christian I couldn't say certain things. To be a Christian I had to behave/ dress etc in certain ways. I feared that my minister was going to have a heart attack in 1963 when I referred to god in female terms!
 
Dave Henderson said:
At the end of his life, Joshua stood before his fellow believers and called the question: "Choose today who you will serve. As for me and my house, we will serve God." The United Church of Canada is a Christian denomination. I sense at this time in the church' s very short history the same question is being asked. I joyfully declare that I serve God. Others may choose not to serve God and choose to leave the faith community. Perhaps the church will decide it is no longer a Christian community and it will be people like me will leave the community. Either way, the question still needs to be asked.
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Yes, I would like to see a decision made one way or the other. I agree that the question needs to be asked and I believe we are going to lose members either way.
 
paradox3 said:
Yes, I would like to see a decision made one way or the other. I agree that the question needs to be asked and I believe we are going to lose members either way.
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When I re-dedicated my life to God in my mid-thirties, I returned to the church of my childhood, the reform Baptist church. After three years it became apparent I could not be in essential agreement with them on crucial issues and returned the church I was baptized and confirmed in as a teen, the United Church of Canada. I still have a wonderful relationship with my Baptist friends. But I needed to be in another spiritual place. That sometimes happens on a faith journey...
 
KayTheCurler said:
yep. Kinda what I said earlier - talking about spiritual experiences isn't on the radar of most church people. Many of them still cling to a security blanket they earned at Sunday School. I would have enjoyed participating in such discussions but no one in the churches was interested. My point is - these church relationships rarely include spiritual moments .

Once I met a UCCAN minister and had a fascinating conversation about beliefs, hers and mine. I was favourably impressed . When I asked how her beliefs were received by the pew sitters on Sundays she looked horrified and said she didn't tell them her true beliefs, she preached the time honoured old line. It reminded me of all the other times when a Christian in a position of authority told me firmly that I was wrong. To be a Christian I couldn't say certain things. To be a Christian I had to behave/ dress etc in certain ways. I feared that my minister was going to have a heart attack in 1963 when I referred to god in female terms!
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It's a crazy thing isn't it? I mean shying away from sharing our spiritual experiences with each other. Folks need to talk more, for sure.
 
Dave Henderson said:
When I re-dedicated my life to God in my mid-thirties, I returned to the church of my childhood, the reform Baptist church. After three years it became apparent I could not be in essential agreement with them on crucial issues and returned the church I was baptized and confirmed in as a teen, the United Church of Canada. I still have a wonderful relationship with my Baptist friends. But I needed to be in another spiritual place. That sometimes happens on a faith journey...
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Is spiritual stuff immaterial to the staid sorts that believe they know everything from nothing to eternal?

Now is that a' Muse'n? Dark flighty thought because the staid on what they see through ... an aira of mystery forming a gassy sphere surrounding the dirt of the situation in deep vacuum ... one might experience some getting drawn out when shedding the heavier bo-de-an state ... quite Eire in virtue ... Mrs. Understood Truth about how little we know as small parts ...
 
In the meantime @Dave Henderson the churches will continue to say the same old stuff. No doubt they will continue to get the same responses - boredom - amusement - bemusement - disinterest - etc. etc..
 
Dave Henderson said:
We might be surprised Kay, I have spoken with many who say there is a new breath moving through the corridors of the United Church.
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Alas, I've been hearing about "new breath" and such going back to my UCCan days, which are now almost 30 years in the past.

The UCCan needs some kind of renewal/revival, but I'm not sure it is imminent unless you have seen something that I have not. I do not think, BTW, that Gretta is it. It needs to be respectful of the church's faith, but reinvigorate and breath new life into the old husk of that faith. Something like process theology that creates a real sense of God being present and active and energizing, rather than a hoary old paternalistic judge and parent.
 
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