Keep Women in the kitchen

[paradox3]

@Seeler, I mentioned my experience with a church being negative towards having a woman minister upthread. Sad to see that attitude is still out there. Even sadder that even with that, the UCCan is at the good end of the spectrum.

@Jae, deciding that a person cannot fulfill their personal potential because of a book written in a time when women were often still treated as property is illustrative of why people like Chansen and Pavlos detest Christianity so much and why I, while I do not share their views, left.

Would be interested to learn more about why you decided to leave Christianity and pursue UUism. Do you identify as a post-Christian?

Maybe I should start a new thread, what do you think? I might call it "leaving one faith for another" to broaden the discussion.

 

[Waterfall]

It's interesting that up until Emperor Constantines time, the oracles of Delphi were always women and very well respected by the people. The Delphi was still around during the time of Christ and the Apostle Paul (who actually encountered a representative of the Pythia in Acts).
Cleopatra, ruler of all Egypt, died 30 years before Christs birth. There were women philosophers, poets, leaders of armies....
It seems that women had high positions......even in religions prior and during? Christianity with the goddess Asherah (queen of heaven in the Hebrew bible) from Ugaritic origins and Sophia represented Wisdom, represented by a dove that translates to spirit, within the eastern churches.
There were many role models for women to look up to within religions......so it seems strange that Christianity wouldn't have a similar pattern of respect for women to be placed in high positions.

 

[revsdd]

Which just justifies my decision to leave Christianity all the more, since I am no longer obligated to deal with hermeneutics in deciding how to live my life and run my church.

Really? You never interpret anything? Nothing at all? Because that's what hermeneutics is. It's not restricted to the Bible. Martin Heidigger applies the process of hermeneutics to all forms of text - sacred or otherwise. Wilhelm Dilthey argued that even interpreting history is a form of hermeneutics.

I would argue that all of us are obligated to deal with hermeneutics of a sort in every aspect of our lives.

 

[revsdd]

Can we take this a bit deeper and consider women in ministry in the UCC?
We pride ourselves on how early we first began ordaining women, and the fact that women have been called (or elected) to the highest position in our church. Our present Moderator is a woman. But how are women in ministry treated in our churches?

I recently heard that a woman who has been serving one of churches in this Presbytery is 'on leave' from her church. I've known her for a few years, heard her preach once. She is devoted, intelligent, kind, hard-working, gifted and creative (and musical too). I remember thinking when she was first called to this church how fortunate they were to have this talented, out-going, Spirit-led person as their minister. And now I hear that that church is seeking a change in pastoral relations.

In the past few years in this Presbytery she is the third female minister to be quietly removed from their position.

Is this coincidence? What are your thoughts or experiences? (I know that a few times when I've been asked to do LLWL services that the congregation would have preferred a man - fortunately there are many others who seem to have me at or near the top of their lists of who to call.

I don't know if it's a coincidence, or if something deeper is going on that reflects on the view of women in ministry at both the Presbytery and congregational levels, since I don't know your Presbytery.

I would say that I have been involved to varying degrees in courts of the church and disciplinary proceedings in the church for a lot of years and I would say that the vast majority of ministers who have been subjected to reviews and potential removal by Presbytery have probably been men. That isn't because most ministers are men, because for many years now I would say that the majority of ministers in the Presbyteries I've served in have been women.

It's possible that there have been more female ministers than male ministers who've simply thrown their hands up in disgust and left a congregation without saying anything or who have been pushed out by congregations who don't want a woman in ministry. That would be difficult to say. But in terms of formal action being taken, it's been mostly against male ministers. I am of course aware of things that happen to female ministers that generally don't happen to male ministers.

For example, no one has ever commented on my legs - but I've had female colleagues who've told me that they've had such comments from male parishioners.

 

[Seeler]

I don't know if it's a coincidence, or if something deeper is going on that reflects on the view of women in ministry at both the Presbytery and congregational levels, since I don't know your Presbytery.

I would say that I have been involved to varying degrees in courts of the church and disciplinary proceedings in the church for a lot of years and I would say that the vast majority of ministers who have been subjected to reviews and potential removal by Presbytery have probably been men. That isn't because most ministers are men, because for many years now I would say that the majority of ministers in the Presbyteries I've served in have been women.

It's possible that there have been more female ministers than male ministers who've simply thrown their hands up in disgust and left a congregation without saying anything or who have been pushed out by congregations who don't want a woman in ministry. That would be difficult to say. But in terms of formal action being taken, it's been mostly against male ministers. I am of course aware of things that happen to female ministers that generally don't happen to male ministers.

For example, no one has ever commented on my legs - but I've had female colleagues who've told me that they've had such comments from male parishioners.

I don't think that any of these ministers were subject to a formal review. I'm not even sure who the other two are. I think that they realized that they were not wanted in their congregations (and perhaps wwere told by the Board or by M&P) and decided to request a change. Maybe they found that they could not use their gifts in a hostile environment.
I think one was called to another congregation in this Presbytery that may be a better fit for her skills.

 

[Pinga]

@Seeler, so many layers in this one, including what happens in the work force.
The current workforce is more used to women in leadership positions;however, it still has it's challenges of glass-ceilings and gender-bias.
Now, if you look at congregations, many are made up of congregations that have left the congregation for as much as 20 years ago. At the time, there were few women in the workplace. I suggest that congregations, if anything have supported women more than the wider employment areas.

 

[revsdd]

I don't think that any of these ministers were subject to a formal review. I'm not even sure who the other two are. I think that they realized that they were not wanted in their congregations (and perhaps wwere told by the Board or by M&P) and decided to request a change. Maybe they found that they could not use their gifts in a hostile environment.
I think one was called to another congregation in this Presbytery that may be a better fit for her skills.

Although it's hard to say for sure if it's because they were women or just because they weren't a good fit. It's possible they weren't a good fit because they were women - but men also come to the realization that for one reason or another they aren't wanted or it's a bad fit and they move on quietly. It's just difficult to know for sure what's behind a person's reasoning when they move one.

 

[Mendalla]

Really? You never interpret anything? Nothing at all? Because that's what hermeneutics is. It's not restricted to the Bible. Martin Heidigger applies the process of hermeneutics to all forms of text - sacred or otherwise. Wilhelm Dilthey argued that even interpreting history is a form of hermeneutics.

I would argue that all of us are obligated to deal with hermeneutics of a sort in every aspect of our lives.

Fine, amend my statement to read "Biblical hermeneutics" then. To be fair to myself, though, I have never heard the term used outside a religious context. I have always acknowledged that I interpret reality through my own lens and you know that as well as anyone.

What I was really trying to get at is that I am not locked into a particular hermeneutics, but can be informed by a range of sources. My canon is not closed, and likely never will be. If the Bible says (or is thought to say)that women cannot be leaders, I am not beholden to that if other wisdom suggests otherwise.

 

[revsdd]

Fine, amend my statement to read "Biblical hermeneutics" then. To be fair to myself, though, I have never heard the term used outside a religious context. I have always acknowledged that I interpret reality through my own lens and you know that as well as anyone.

Which is why I was surprised by what you wrote. The word "hermeneutics" is indeed used for forms of interpretation aside from biblical interpretation.

 

[crazyheart]

I am sure that many will not agree with me.

I have watched closely over the last years

and find that more women than men come into the

ministry with many personal problems on their shoulders,

I feel that they think the ministry will help them with their

problems. But in stead it affects their ministry negatively

the congregations sense it. The weakest becomes more vulnerable,

their problems aren't solved and many leave the ministry and

name other reasons. MO.

 

[paradox3]

We always hear that stress levels are high for ministry personnel.

 

[revjohn]

I am sure that many will not agree with me.

That really is par for theological discussion though.

I have watched closely over the last years

and find that more women than men come into the

ministry with many personal problems on their shoulders,

I feel that they think the ministry will help them with their

problems. But in stead it affects their ministry negatively

the congregations sense it. The weakest becomes more vulnerable,

their problems aren't solved and many leave the ministry and

name other reasons.

I think it is wounded healer syndrome. Typically stems from a pour understanding of Nenri Nouwen's work by the same name.

It isn't a gender specific issue. Plenty of men enyering ministry have the same problem.

In essence broken individuals read Nouwen and think that they are called to ministry because of their brokenness rather than being called to ministry in spite of their brokenness.

As a result they neglect their healing believing that only by remaining broken can they empathize with broken souls they meet through ministry.

To a degree you are right. The broken part of them becomes a detriment to their ministry because they resist giving it the healing attention it needs.

This leads to shorter and unhappier pastoral relationships if unchecked and possibly formal review for some serious breach.

There is, as revsdd points out, quite a bit of difference between comments parishioners will make to male clergy as opposed to comments parishioners will make to female clergy.

And there is also the bully factor. If parishioners think they can get away with murder they rarely try not to commit it.

 

[Jaebius]

I have often wondered why some churches will cling to the Adam and Eve story as justification for not having women ministers, and yet not follow all of the teachings in Leviticus.
@Jae is there an answer for this? How does your church decide which teachings can be let go and why?

How does any Christian church choose what to adhere to Waterfall? We do our best to follow the guidance of the Spirit of God. In our case, we do not believe that all of the laws in Leviticus were meant to be prescriptive for all time and in every culture.

I don't know of any church that clings to Adam and Eve as the sole reason to be complementarian.

 

[Waterfall]

How does any Christian church choose what to adhere to Waterfall? We do our best to follow the guidance of the Spirit of God. In our case, we do not believe that all of the laws in Leviticus were meant to be prescriptive for all time and in every culture.

I don't know of any church that clings to Adam and Eve as the sole reason to be complementarian.

How did you decide that a women not being a minister was a law that was prescriptive for these times?

I realize Adam and Eve are not the sole reason for your complementarianism, but it is part of it, right?

 

[Jaebius]

How did you decide that a women not being a minister was a law that was prescriptive for these times?

We follow our denomination.

I realize Adam and Eve are not the sole reason for your complementarianism, but it is part of it, right?

Yes, that's correct.

 

[Luce NDs]

Some follow the denominator blindly ... like Yurtle the Turtle ... a stacked case!

 

[GeoFee]

"And there is also the bully factor. If parishioners think they can get away with murder they rarely try not to commit it." revjohn

Is this indicative of what they have learned through the teaching and example of those presiding over the liturgies of the church?

George

 

[Pinga]

"And there is also the bully factor. If parishioners think they can get away with murder they rarely try not to commit it." revjohn

Is this indicative of what they have learned through the teaching and example of those presiding over the liturgies of the church?

George

Umm, not in my history.
The people who were bullies in our church were people who brought their workplace behaviours into a place that didn't know how to deal with it or... had created their own little fiefdoms.

 

[Luce NDs]

Minnie Taurs?

 

[GeoFee]

Umm, not in my history.
The people who were bullies in our church were people who brought their workplace behaviours into a place that didn't know how to deal with it or... had created their own little fiefdoms.

How did such a culture take root and prosper among us? Under the oversight and discipline of whom?

George