Interventionist God or Non Interventionist God?

[Waterfall]

Forget "proof" - it would be nice to have anything resembling evidence, or indeed wasn't refuted by the evidence we do have.

And in a world where lies are believed because people want them to be true, I will happily be known as the one who does not believe simply because other people do.

Also, that kinda rhymed.

Some would say that "belief is created by exploring faith from the inside, rather than holding it at arms length in order to study it quizzically in order to fit it in our pocket". I realize this notion does not fit your criteria....but still, "a river suffering because reflections of clouds and trees, are not clouds and trees and a sponge suffering because it cannot saturate itself."

https://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/1980/milosz-poems-2-e.html

 

[Mendalla]

We don't know that there was nothing. And if we presuppose there had to be nothing at some starting point, that also removes God from the equation, assuming God is something and not nothing.

The popular Christian argument is that God exists outside of time and space. Which is the sort of thing you say when you have no good explanation and you want to sound impressive.

Current cosmology is rejecting the "something from nothing" version of the Big Bang. A singularity simply doesn't make sense mathematically or physically. There are several competing theories to replace it, but for most cosmologists, "Big Bang" now refers to cosmic inflation, not the beginning of the universe (and there is research questioning even cosmic inflation in my latest Scientific American which I have not read yet).

The bottom line is that if God created the universe, God doesn't seem to have created it from "nothing" but from something that existed before, whether it was "branes" or a previous universe. The more likely scenario is that, IF (and I emphasize "IF") there is a God, that God must be more like that of process theology, a Creator in the sense of working to move and shape the universe in creative, innovative ways but not in the sense of being the initiator of existence. An ex nihilo creation is simply not compatible with current cosmology unless you really stretch the definition of "nothing".

 

[chansen]

It's more of a stretch to then say this potential awesome creator of the cosmos is extremely concerned about what we do with our penises and vaginas. But still Christianity exists.

 

[revsdd]

As I've said many times, all doctrine is a beginning rather than an ending, so I'm not wedded to the doctrine of creation ex nihilo. When I refer to God creating something out of nothing, rather than a reference to the specifics of creation ex nihilo I'm simply saying that all that exists is a creation of God and all that has ever existed was created by God and all that will ever exist will be created by God.

 

[Dave Henderson]

God is an interventionist being even if we do not believe she is actively so. That is because God's very being - even the concept of his being - intervenes in our thoughts, our feelings, our perceptions of life, the world, the divine. But however you answer Waterfall's questions, it leads to the inevitable questions already thrown into this soup pot by previous posters: If God is interventionist, why all the suffering? If God is interventionist, how can it be quantified? Boy, are we a gaggle of deep thinkers.

 

[Mendalla]

Boy, are we a gaggle of deep thinkers.

That's kind of the point of this place.

 

[chansen]

God is an interventionist being even if we do not believe she is actively so. That is because God's very being - even the concept of his being - intervenes in our thoughts, our feelings, our perceptions of life, the world, the divine. But however you answer Waterfall's questions, it leads to the inevitable questions already thrown into this soup pot by previous posters: If God is interventionist, why all the suffering? If God is interventionist, how can it be quantified? Boy, are we a gaggle of deep thinkers.

People have tried to measure the effects of prayer. Can you imagine the ramifications of discovering a way to petition a higher power to intervene on your behalf? People would stampede to convert.

Nobody had been able to show a thing.

The argument that finishes off the God hypothesis for me is, if you remove the assumption of God, does anything change? I don't see how it does. Some good things happen. Some bad things happen. There are boring stretches in between.

 

[Dave Henderson]

People have tried to measure the effects of prayer. Can you imagine the ramifications of discovering a way to petition a higher power to intervene on your behalf? People would stampede to convert.

Nobody had been able to show a thing.

The argument that finishes off the God hypothesis for me is, if you remove the assumption of God, does anything change? I don't see how it does. Some good things happen. Some bad things happen. There are boring stretches in between.

Hi Chansen, An interesting read in Psychology Today https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/more-mortal/201406/5-scientifically-supported-benefits-prayer
It doesn't speak directly to your to your post regarding measuring the effects of prayer. But there are scientifically proven benefits for those who do the praying.
"According to a 2013 Pew Research Poll, over half of Americans pray every day. A 2012 poll found that over 75 percent of Americans believe that prayer is an important part of daily life. Other polls indicate that even some atheists and religiously unaffiliated individuals admit that they sometimes pray.

Our species has probably been praying for as long as we have been able to contemplate our existence. And though we may never be able to establish evidence that a deity or spiritual force actually hears our prayers, in recent years, scientists have begun to consider the potential tangible (i.e., measurable) effects of prayer. And this research suggests that prayer may be very beneficial.

So here are five scientifically-supported benefits of prayer:

1. Prayer improves self-control

Studies have demonstrated that self-control is like a muscle. That is, it gets fatigued. You can only do so many push-ups before your muscles give out. Similarly, activities that require self-control are fatiguing, making it more difficult to make good choices the more you have to use your "self-control muscle." Think about it. You are more likely to lose your cool or engage in mindless eating when you are mentally exhausted.

Recent research indicates that prayer can help you get more out of your "self-control muscle." Research participants who said a prayer prior to a mentally exhausting task were better able to exercise self-control following that task. In addition, other studies demonstrate the prayer reduces alcohol consumption, which may reflect the exercise of self-control. Findings such as these suggest that prayer has an energizing effect.

2. Prayer makes you nicer

Researchers found that having people pray for those in need reduced the amount of aggression they expressed following an anger-inducing experience. In other words, prayer helps you not lose your cool.

3. Prayer makes you more forgiving

Researchers found that having people pray for a romantic partner or friend made them more willing to forgive those individuals.

4. Prayer increases trust

Recent studies found that having people pray together with a close friend increased feelings of unity and trust. This finding is interesting because it suggests that praying with others can be an experience that brings people closer together. Social prayer may thus help build close relationships.

5. Prayer offsets the negative health effects of stress

Researchers found that people who prayed for others were less vulnerable to the negative physical health effects associated with financial stress. Also, it was the focus on others that seemed to be contributing to the stress-buffering effects of prayer. Praying for material gain did not counter the effects of stress. So thinking about the welfare of others may be a crucial component of receiving personal benefits from prayer.

Scientists and public intellectuals who are critical of religion, focus on what they believe to be the irrationality of religious belief. Why waste time believing in things that have no supporting scientific evidence? These critics typically fail to consider the fact that scientific studies are finding measureable benefits of religious faith. As I have discussed here and here, religion is complicated. It can be both good and bad for your health depending on a number of variables. However, there is a growing body of evidence indicating that prayer, a behavior often associated with religion, can be beneficial for individuals and society."

 

[chansen]

All the above can be achieved through various forms of meditation. The God part is optional.

 

[Dave Henderson]

All the above can be achieved through various forms of meditation. The God part is optional.

Sounds like an unsubstantiated statement to me.

 

[chansen]

Like proclaiming a God?

 

[Ichthys]

If I believed in a God, I wouldn't care. If he is an interventionist, all of the stuff he has done so far has failed so why bother. If he is a noninterventionist he clearly does not care about humanity so why believe in him?

 

[Inukshuk]

I lean to the "luring" side, as well (although that sounds really creepy) I have heard this story/joke used many, many times in sermons, which somewhat illustrates the point.

A fellow was stuck on his rooftop in a flood. He was praying to God for help.
Soon a man in a rowboat came by and the fellow shouted to the man on the roof, "Jump in, I can save you."
The stranded fellow shouted back, "No, it's OK, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me."
So the rowboat went on.
Then a motorboat came by. "The fellow in the motorboat shouted, "Jump in, I can save you."
To this the stranded man said, "No thanks, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith."
So the motorboat went on.
Then a helicopter came by and the pilot shouted down, "Grab this rope and I will lift you to safety."
To this the stranded man again replied, "No thanks, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith."
So the helicopter reluctantly flew away.
Soon the water rose above the rooftop and the man drowned. He went to Heaven. He finally got his chance to discuss this whole situation with God, at which point he exclaimed, "I had faith in you but you didn't save me, you let me drown. I don't understand why!"
To this God replied, "I sent you a rowboat and a motorboat and a helicopter, what more did you expect?"

 

[paradox3]

All the above can be achieved through various forms of meditation. The God part is optional.

Meditation has certainly been shown to assist with stress reduction (Point #5). Not sure about the other points.

 

[paradox3]

I lean to the "luring" side, as well (although that sounds really creepy) I have heard this story/joke used many, many times in sermons, which somewhat illustrates the point.

A fellow was stuck on his rooftop in a flood. He was praying to God for help.
Soon a man in a rowboat came by and the fellow shouted to the man on the roof, "Jump in, I can save you."
The stranded fellow shouted back, "No, it's OK, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me."
So the rowboat went on.
Then a motorboat came by. "The fellow in the motorboat shouted, "Jump in, I can save you."
To this the stranded man said, "No thanks, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith."
So the motorboat went on.
Then a helicopter came by and the pilot shouted down, "Grab this rope and I will lift you to safety."
To this the stranded man again replied, "No thanks, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith."
So the helicopter reluctantly flew away.
Soon the water rose above the rooftop and the man drowned. He went to Heaven. He finally got his chance to discuss this whole situation with God, at which point he exclaimed, "I had faith in you but you didn't save me, you let me drown. I don't understand why!"
To this God replied, "I sent you a rowboat and a motorboat and a helicopter, what more did you expect?"

I have heard this story many times as well. But I have always seen it as leaning to the "God as interventionist" end of the spectrum.

 

[paradox3]

Or it is a parable to demonstrate that we keep looking for God when God is already with us.

 

[revsdd]

People have tried to measure the effects of prayer. Can you imagine the ramifications of discovering a way to petition a higher power to intervene on your behalf? People would stampede to convert.

Nobody had been able to show a thing.

The argument that finishes off the God hypothesis for me is, if you remove the assumption of God, does anything change? I don't see how it does. Some good things happen. Some bad things happen. There are boring stretches in between.

Actually, "nobody had been able to show a thing" is a bit of an exaggeration. Over a year ago, as part of another discussion on prayer, I researched various studies on the effects of prayer and reported back as follows:

Also, the question has been raised as to whether and how we might analyze the results of prayer. I know some attempts have been made to analyze whether prayer is successful or not. In 1872, Francis Galton somewhat jokingly noted that if intercessory prayer were actually effective, the kings and queens of England should live very long lives since they were "prayed" for every Sunday in church and countless times during the week. (I'm not aware of anyone who has looked at the question of whether the kings and queens of England have statistically longer lifespans than the ordinary person. That would require determining when prayers for the king and/or queen became a regular feature of prayer, analyzing from that point on how old kings and queens lived to be, and comparing that to the average lifespan of people in England in the same era. Too complicated and time consuming for me to bother with, but if someone has the time I'd be somewhat interested in the results. There was the experiment by Byrd in San Francisco (circa 1980?) who had several hundred patients in a supposedly blind study in which some patients were prayed for and others weren't, and found some limited evidence suggesting that those who were prayed for had measurably better outcomes. The scientific community had mixed reactions. One primary criticism was that while there was a control group of people who were selected to pray only for certain patients, there was no way of knowing if others outside the experiment were praying for those who had been selected not to be prayed for in the experiment. Therefore, all in the study might have been being prayed for, and unless one takes the position that God was constrained by the experiment to only listen to and answer those who had been selected to pray, then the results could not possibly show the effect of prayer. Fair point. There was a follow up experiment by a different researcher about 20 years ago (?) who reported similar results to Byrd's. That research was criticized by some on similar grounds. A study by the Mayo Clinic around the same time on coronary patients showed no effect from intercessory prayer. A Duke University study showed similar results to the Mayo Clinic study. A medical journal published by the American College of Physicians looked at 23 studies on prayer and found that 13 reported beneficial effects from prayer, 8 reported no effect and only 1 showed a negative effect. My conclusion would be that prayer probably isn't going to hurt the one being prayed for and in any event, since prayer - either personal or communal - is also about both expressing the faith and building the relationship of the person doing the praying with God, such studies to some extent miss the point.

 

[Inukshuk]

I have heard this story many times as well. But I have always seen it as leaning to the "God as interventionist" end of the spectrum.

As @Mendalla posted earlier, I see it as "God intervenes but not directly"

 

[Seeler]

Responding to OP before reading other comments ...

Does God intervene in the minute details of our lives?
One day at the ally I was getting very discouraged with my poor bowling. Then out-of-the-blue I got a beautiful strike. And a teammate leaned over to me and said, "I was praaying that you would get a strike." Wow? She must have some powerful prayers that God would pause from running the world to guide a particular bowling ball down the lane. But wait a minute -- maybe God was also answering someone else's prayers and sending so many of my balls down the gutter.

Did God intervene and send a storm to blow the Spanish Armada into the North Atlantic and save England?

Did God inteervene and send an iceberg into the path of an 'unsinkable' ship to show God's power?

Did God intervene to save my child when others died?

Did God answer prayers? (That's a hard one, and perhaps a little off topic.)

No, I don't believe in an inteerventionist God who reaches down from his throne in heaven and manipulates everey little detail here on earth.
I don't believe he gave me Parkinsons. I don't beelieve that he will take it aaway.

But - I believe in a power or a presence or a someone or a something or an intelligence, or a force in the universe. I believe that something I call God is beenevolent. And I believe that God works through us and with us in relationship with the universe. God desires peace, justice, harmony and diversity, growth and change. God calls us, guides us, inspires us, forgives us when we turn away or screw-up, and surrounds us with love.

And just as knowing I have the team and the league behind me, accepting me as I am, cheering for me, having fun together and not worrying about the score, might help me to relax and bowl better or at least to laugh when I roll another gutter ball, I believe that God's presence might call us to have courage in inpossible situations, give us hope when the situation seems hopeless, strength beyond our expectations, wisdom, knowledge that we didn't even know we had. It may calm us, steady us, enable us to do our best. Calm us. Enable us to forgive ourselves and others when we fail. And fill us with joy.

Does God intervene? No, and Yes!

 

[Mendalla]

Sounds like an unsubstantiated statement to me.

Actually, there's a fair bit of research on the benefits of meditation. Sam Harris did his doctoral thesis on the subject (he has a Ph.D. in neuroscience) and wrote a book based on his thesis which is well footnoted with other papers and books of interest. I'd recommend to anyone of any religious stripe, even with Harris' reputation as an atheist debunker of faith. It gives a very good picture of how spiritual practice, with or without faith in a supernatural deity, can be a benefit. He actually got some derision from other atheists as a result of his advocacy of meditation and contemplation.

https://www.amazon.ca/Waking-Up-Spirituality-Without-Religion/dp/1451636016