I have free will to an extent, what do you have.

[Aufscherin]

I'm reading stuff here about free will and free choice that this God supposedly gives us. Did I receive the option of choice as to whether or not I wished to be born? Did I choose to have a drunk as a father, or a pill popping neurotic mother? Did I choose to be moved from 3 different countries by the time I was 10? Did I get to choose my gender, height, looks, (although my looks are pretty good lol) Did I get to choose my nationality or race?

I can envision the conversation vis a vis me and this God:
God:" Here beist yonder deal, thou shalt live as a saint denying thyself everything, lest ye burn in hell for all eternity"
Me: "No lord, I don't want that, no birth for me please".
God" Too bad for verily thy shalt be born!"

Not cool, not fair.

 

[Pavlos Maros]

The concept of god given free will, I believe, is about god not controlling our decision making-- we are not puppets. It is not about us having special powers of free choice. I suspect we agree on this.

As someone who has no good reason to believe in a god, I know I have free will. I can choose to act or not act because the future is uncertain.
For a believer, their god knows the future and controls their decision making by removing the possibility of real choice. The outcome is predetermined, which removes true freedom of choice. This is why I said believers only have the illusion of free will. So, no, we don't agree. As humans, they have will, but as believers who think their god gave them free will, they do not.

 

[Waterfall]

I'm reading stuff here about free will and free choice that this God supposedly gives us. Did I receive the option of choice as to whether or not I wished to be born? Did I choose to have a drunk as a father, or a pill popping neurotic mother? Did I choose to be moved from 3 different countries by the time I was 10? Did I get to choose my gender, height, looks, (although my looks are pretty good lol) Did I get to choose my nationality or race?

I can envision the conversation vis a vis me and this God:
God:" Here beist yonder deal, thou shalt live as a saint denying thyself everything, lest ye burn in hell for all eternity"
Me: "No lord, I don't want that, no birth for me please".
God" Too bad for verily thy shalt be born!"

Not cool, not fair.

Your last paragraph seems to be an example of using a myth to show your truth....an effective and poetic way to show us how you would have chosen not to be born if allowed.
It sounds like you had a tough beginning, are things better now?

 

[Jaebius]

As someone who has no good reason to believe in a god, I know I have free will. I can choose to act or not act because the future is uncertain.
For a believer, their god knows the future and controls their decision making by removing the possibility of real choice. The outcome is predetermined, which removes true freedom of choice. This is why I said believers only have the illusion of free will. So, no, we don't agree. As humans, they have will, but as believers who think their god gave them free will, they do not.

Our belief that God knows the future and has a plan for each of us doesn't negate our ability to make choices. We believe that we're created in God's image, which includes the capacity for free will. God knows the choices we'll make because he sees all of history at once. This grasping affirms his greatness

 

[BetteTheRed]

God knows the choices we'll make because he sees all of history at once.

Then "choice" is not a good word, as we're not free to choose outside of what "God knows".

 

[Jaebius]

Then "choice" is not a good word, as we're not free to choose outside of what "God knows".

Think of it this way. God's foreknowledge is an observer who sees the entire parade from a high vantage point, while we, walking in the parade, experience each moment as it comes. When my siblings and I were kids, we did that once or twice during Toronto's Santa Claus Parade. We were on the one of the top floors of a downtown skyscraper, and we could look down and see exactly where the parade was going to go. God knows the path we'll take because he sees it all at once

 

[BetteTheRed]

But Jae, that means we don't have free will. I cannot grasp the logic of your position. If god is omniscient, there are no choices to make.

If you wish to argue that there is no logic to your opinion, but you hold it anyway, you've completely lost my interest. You may as well argue that the sky is "sky blue pink with a finny-addy border"...

 

[Jaebius]

But Jae, that means we don't have free will. I cannot grasp the logic of your position. If god is omniscient, there are no choices to make.

If you wish to argue that there is no logic to your opinion, but you hold it anyway, you've completely lost my interest. You may as well argue that the sky is "sky blue pink with a finny-addy border"...

Believe that God's omniscience doesn't do away with our ability to make genuine choices. It's like how my Yobo knows our sons so well (especially the younger one) that she can predict their actions, yet our sons still make their own decisions. God's knowledge of our choices reflects his grasping of us

 

[Aufscherin]

It sounds like you had a tough beginning, are things better now?

How very kind of you to ask, I am impressed and I don't impress easy. Yes, my life is quite good and I make a lot of $$$, and these days people respect me.

 

[Pavlos Maros]

Believe that God's omniscience doesn't do away with our ability to make genuine choices. It's like how my Yobo knows our sons so well (especially the younger one) that she can predict their actions, yet our sons still make their own decisions. God's knowledge of our choices reflects his grasping of us

Jae, you are not worthy of anybody's time with that nonsense, Bette did warn you. Do try harder, you could even try thinking about it for a while that might help you. Though, I do doubt it.

 

[Waterfall]

Jae, you are not worthy of anybody's time with that nonsense, Bette did warn you. Do try harder, you could even try thinking about it for a while that might help you. Though, I do doubt it.

Pablo's you seem very disrespectful of answers that don't line up with yours.

 

[Luce NDs]

Our belief that God knows the future and has a plan for each of us doesn't negate our ability to make choices. We believe that we're created in God's image, which includes the capacity for free will. God knows the choices we'll make because he sees all of history at once. This grasping affirms his greatness

Not me ... I've been told by the astutely pious that I'm an advocate ... partly opposed to pure loving love for love 's ake alone ... half loving knowledge collection ... so one can know the divine ... a point of separation from pure blind emotional excitement. The option is a dividing line (thin) between the 2 extremists ... bifurcation personified? There's a development differing from the explosive character ... get the image?

Yup the pious declare I've gone to hell with IT! Alas hand and hand in attempt to maintain balance of two vast extremes ... overlapping absolutes and the feinter abstract ... mind the rill as se*para*tory zone ... Zion high in the isles ... the advocate ripples ... odd cackle ... MOG? Isn't that great ...

 

[Pavlos Maros]

Pablo's you seem very disrespectful of answers that don't line up with yours.

When someone repeatedly presents flawed arguments, it's not disrespectful to ask them to stop making a fool of themselves. He has been informed of the faults in his belief, yet he continues to repeat it as though it remains valid. Engaging with a logical counterargument is the appropriate response, rather than reiterating faulty logic. This type of behaviour doesn't advance the conversation one iota.

 

[Luce NDs]

Ha! Maybe Haw sir ...

 

[Aufscherin]

I used to run a small witchcraft forum "Wicca's Cauldron". (Proboards) Though most of the 80 members were witches, warlocks, pagans, and other eccentric misfits, we did have a few die hard Christians as members. What I invaribly found is that they were all so indoctrinated from childhood by the church, that they had for all intents and purposes lost the ability to think for themselves. They would merely parrot what they had been taught, or quote the bible. I see evidence of that here on this thread.

 

[Luce NDs]

I used to run a small witchcraft forum "Wicca's Cauldron". (Proboards) Though most of the 80 members were witches, warlocks, pagans, and other eccentric misfits, we did have a few die hard Christians as members. What I invaribly found is that they were all so indoctrinated from childhood by the church, that they had for all intents and purposes lost the ability to think for themselves. They would merely parrot what they had been taught, or quote the bible. I see evidence of that here on this thread.

Imagine that as an abstract ... or is that a fantasy? How could one fantasy knowing nothing ... my grandfather had an ide-A on that! Delinquency ... vanishing act? So it goes ... our thoughts are stripped out ...