How does one "choose" a Belief System?

[BetteTheRed]

I have to say that, from my experience, while it's possible to seek out mystical experiences, that the success of seeking and finding versus not-seeking and finding is pretty equal.

 

[Ritafee]

Note that I am not saying that personal faith is not valuable. It's the placing of personal faith above that for which we have evidence that is the problem. We know that faith-based anti-gay positions are damaging to LGBTQ youth because we have evidence that it is, but some will still place the faith above the people it harms.

Faith-based anti-positions are more damaging then than scientific-based anti positions?

Among the leaders in brain scan research is Ivanka Savic ...

• Her studies suggest that transgender men have a weakened connection between the two areas of the brain that process the perception of self and one’s own body.
  
• Savic said those connections seem to improve after the person receives cross-hormone treatment.

Her work has been published more than 100 times on various topics in peer-reviewed journals ...

• but she still cannot conclude whether people are born transgender

• “I think that, but I have yet to prove that,” Savic said.

A number of other researchers, including both geneticists and neurologists ...

• presume a biological component that is also influenced by upbringing

So you have scientists that cannot yet scientifically prove a genetic or biological reason for 'gayness' - but they have faith that they will - because they want that to be true.

Then you have scientists that say that it is not genetic or biological so no matter how much you want it to be a scientific truth - there is no scientific evidence to support it and therefore they do not treat it as anything other than a psychological persuasion.

Or do you hold that only religious people of 'faith in a god that does not exist' can be anti gay or anti LGBTQ in a way that is harmful to people that hold a 'personal faith in their gender ideology'.

Now I do not care one way or another ... I am not the judge of what is right or wrong for another human being. What I do know is that were I to decide that I wanted to transition from female to male at this point in my life ... the first place I would go would be to a medical doctor not a doctor of religion.

Who gives LGBTQ people more greif in their lives ... people that believe their god authority system or people that believe their empirical science system or people who believe their government authority system?

It just seems rather convenient to blame everything that is wrong in the world on the 'idiots' that do not subscribe to your worldview - which seems to me to be about as closed minded as they come.

PS - Two-Spirit (also two spirit or, occasionally, twospirited) is a modern, pan-Indian, umbrella term used by some indigenous North Americans to describe certain people in their communities who fulfill a traditional third-gender (or other gender-variant) role in their cultures. Does Spirit Exist?

 

[BetteTheRed]

In my experience, the people who give LGBTQ people the most grief are the religious ones. Science people are eager to understand another group of continua, largely. Government people just want someone to give them some clear rules.

I am struggling, a great deal, with how to provide pastoral/friend care to a friend of mine who is bipolar, who screws up with meds, who needs a really orthodox church to give her hands-on healing, but who has an autistic son with long hair. Every single orthodox/evangelical church she tries wants to ignore her and convert her son to straightness via reparative therapy. Our church is too open-ended for her comfort. Pain is quite deep.

 

[Ritafee]

OTTAWA—Martine Roy was just 20-years-old and less than a year into her chosen career as a medical assistant with the Canadian Armed Forces at CFB Borden when military police suddenly showed up at her workplace to arrest her.

They brought her to an interrogation room and demanded she admit she was a lesbian. They put her through psychological testing. Within a year, she had been dishonourably discharged from the army.

Thirty-three years later, she cannot hold back the tears as she prepares to hear an apology from Prime Minister Justin Trudeau in the House of Commons.

Starting in the 1950s and lasting until 1992, thousands of Canadians in the military, RCMP and across the civil service were fired. Roy refers to it as “the purge” by which the government tried to weed out people it felt were susceptible to foreign intimidation and blackmail because of their sexual orientation.

The government developed a test known as the “fruit machine,” which measured arousal to pornographic images in order to provide proof of sexual orientation to back up the reason for firing, or denying someone a promotion.

Roy said when the military police showed up at her door she didn’t even know what her sexual orientation was and the firing “entirely changed my life.”

She said in 1992, when Canada changed the law, she expected an apology — but that didn’t happen until now.

Canada is also facing a class-action suit from more than 2,000 people who say they were persecuted by the federal government for their sexual orientation. Negotiations to settle that suit are underway.

Source: Mia Rabson The Canadian Press Sun., Nov. 19, 2017

 

[Ritafee]

In my experience, the people who give LGBTQ people the most grief are the religious ones. Science people are eager to understand another group of continua, largely. Government people just want someone to give them some clear rules.

I am struggling, a great deal, with how to provide pastoral/friend care to a friend of mine who is bipolar, who screws up with meds, who needs a really orthodox church to give her hands-on healing, but who has an autistic son with long hair. Every single orthodox/evangelical church she tries wants to ignore her and convert her son to straightness via reparative therapy. Our church is too open-ended for her comfort. Pain is quite deep.

What does hands on healing received from a really orthodox church entail ?
What is the scientific government medical system doing for your friend?
What is reparative therapy for autistic long haired sons?

 

[Luce NDs]

Just for interest for those attracted to curios material and insubstantial stuff ... conversion of physical appearance into mental images as photographic alteration? Po' essays ... and poesy? People's freedom to disassociate from anything!

If there is freedom to do ... or to do not ... under Occam what is the simplest resolution in a complex setting? Enigma's ... for allowing all that is a chance to figure out what to do with the errs ... water it down in a myth ... keeps the mistakes at bae!

Word can work as it baffles the strange unknown ... that part of human separate from the emotional brain ... mind you it is tough to get to! Others say it doesn't exist and then doesn't concern them. Can an individual observe lack of concern about knowledge? How does this appear to you ... as abstract?

This is addressed well in a book I am reading that cover ad hominin and other strangeness in the intellectual journey ... main title is NONSENSE with the subtitle The Power of Not Knowing by Jamie Holms a researcher in what I call chaos or disturbed psyches given the ability to work with something that is declared non existent. Such domains of abstract appear as able to allow an individual to stumble into anything when having myopic bs in the minds aye!

In minor document of review we could summarize this as what he refers to as cognitive dissonance ... or the energy of disturbance that wakes the restive ... it would go generally unnoticed by those preferring not to know what bad nous bears! Thus Mu el trains in opposing zones ... working their ass off for they know not ... what? That label attached when something is no longer there ... thus nothing that can actually be experience due to emptying effects of mind ... and the wonder of where the mind waste goes ... thus myths continue as non-existent ... the other side of the ordinance of the active lobes?

This is simulated in the 2 person theory amongst the spirit of soul ... and the rivalry there in dreamland ... mortals convert this to reality if they have no caution or cares about the alternates ... thus something is advocated for destruction. The target varies ... red spot or black spot ...???????

Mostly the book is about trying to extract patterns from chaos ... resembles life ... in general or under core po' real conditions imposed in capital ... kind 've block head type? Square-ish icons ... only two dimensions to them!

 

[Luce NDs]

In #406 what is the conclusion? Consider if you cause an individual to experience love ... does it create out of here experience? Now does the extraction of love do the same resulting in anger, fear and frustration? Isn't that definitive of one of the potential points or just describes an array that could generate a social spectre? Further dissonance ... to separate unbelievable bs as never seen before ... thus thespians and staged stuff ... some autocrats will disagree as it is too close to the failed virtue ... partly due to the position they have put themselves in ... top of the pole/stake/stick/Stix? The shaft migrates ... just for anal -G!

Because of the G-point a host will be myopic ... not extant but intent ... in the movie AUSTRALIA lady Ashton found that which Drover crazy ... a whir wolf? This was foretold by Pinker's tome of WOMEN THAT RUN WITH WOLVES ... the shouts of Peter echo throughout the celestial dome ... that prick that arouses something previously missing ... female psyche? When their thoughts are in it ... take care ...

It does entangle common themes ... plots ... sometimes recognizable as conspiracies under cover ... the FBI could get involved as illegal in some sort of natural way!

 

[BetteTheRed]

What does hands on healing received from a really orthodox church entail ?

I don't know, but that's what she feels very strongly that she needs. Some sort of religious healing ritual, probably repeatedly. I honestly think she's looking for some sort of non-charlatan Benny Hinn experience.

What is the scientific government medical system doing for your friend?

Women's College Hospital has a group for her. It's difficult for them to cope if she won't medicate enough to stabilize herself. Essential oils is not doing the trick.

What is reparative therapy for autistic long haired sons?

LOL. I do not know what it is with evangelicals and their obsession with weeding out potential gayness. Apparently being differently-abled and hating having one's hair cut equal "gay" in an alarmingly large number of minds.

 

[Jaebius]

I don't know, but that's what she feels very strongly that she needs. Some sort of religious healing ritual, probably repeatedly. I honestly think she's looking for some sort of non-charlatan Benny Hinn experience.

Interesting. I've been in evangelical churches for about three decades now and have never personally seen such healing occur (other than on TV). In my experience, the praying for healing that we do is closing our eyes and asking God to heal someone. Sometimes, rarely, hands get laid on the sick person and/or they are anointed with oil. I've never witnessed first-hand any instantaneous miraculous healing take place, but lots over time.

LOL. I do not know what it is with evangelicals and their obsession with weeding out potential gayness.

While I've never known any evangelical who saw homosexual orientation as something sinful, I have known plenty who see same-sex behavior as such.

Apparently being differently-abled and hating having one's hair cut equal "gay" in an alarmingly large number of minds.

Have never heard any evangelical express such as that before.

 

[BetteTheRed]

Don't have to express it for it to be the truth. I know what she means. I get into conversations with evangelicals periodically, and the whole LGBTQ thing makes them anxious. I think they know that they are wrong about this, morally. It's definitely very conflicting.

 

[Jaebius]

Don't have to express it for it to be the truth.

Okay. So if they're not expressing it, you know it to be the truth... how exactly Bette?

 

[BetteTheRed]

Jae, every evangelical church she's been to in this town (and she's been to half a dozen), has gotten around to recommending either reparative therapy or "maybe another church would make you happy" for her son within a few months. It's one of the reasons "someone" recommended our congregation. I had a convo with an evangelical pastor just last week. Made a casual reference to a LGBTQ issue and watched him blanch and move away carefully from the topic.

 

[Jaebius]

Jae, every evangelical church she's been to in this town (and she's been to half a dozen), has gotten around to recommending either reparative therapy or "maybe another church would make you happy" for her son within a few months.

Wow, I'm really surprised by that Bette. Really. At our church we do a lot of ministry with those who are differently abled. I've never heard of anyone in our church, or any other evangelical church I'm personally familiar with, being told to seek such therapy.

I had a convo with an evangelical pastor just last week. Made a casual reference to a LGBTQ issue and watched him blanch and move away carefully from the topic.

Okay. Not being privy to the conversation, I can't comment on it.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I was thinking maybe your friend should move @BetteTheRed but I realize it's not an easy thing to do - a big upheaval, even. Would taking a little weekend pilgrimage/ vacation out of town once in awhile...to Toronto, maybe...help your friend? Would it satisfy her enough for awhile? Would you go with her (and her son)? There must be some church in Toronto that has what she's looking for.

 

[revjohn]

All religions are the same.

Just as all fruits are the same. There is no fundamental difference between Apple, Banana or Orange.

Just as all Medical disciplines are the same. There is no fundamental difference between Brain Surgery, Gastroenterology and Podiatry.

Your response evidences a failure to notice nuance or a willing ignorance.

Lol was this a battle then, the fights all yours.

Debate may be a battle of ideas. It is a battle nonetheless and, in light of your opening statement. No different from actual warfare. Surely all battles are the same?

Anyhow why would I admit defeat, for what reason.

Asked for one doctrine you fail to provide it.

Are you throwing out the bible as the word? It is the inspired word of god, isn't it.

I am not throwing out the Bible as the word. Nor am I arguing against it being divinely inspired.

The whole bible is doctrine.

In point of fact it is not. The Bible most certainly contains doctrine and many texts of scripture are used as proofs for doctrine. The notion that every text of scripture is doctrine is hugely mistaken

doctrine means to instructed to teach.

Not quite.

doctrine

[dok-trin]

• Synonyms
• Examples
• Word Origin

See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
noun
1.
a particular principle, position, or policy taught or advocated, as of a religion or government:
Catholic doctrines; the Monroe Doctrine.
2.
something that is taught; teachings collectively:
religious doctrine.
3.
a body or system of teachings relating to a particular subject:
the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

A teacher is instructed to teach. Doctrine is a particular point of belief and there are quite a few of them because many are formed with particular points of view in play. Rendering the idea that all doctrine is the same also nonsensical. Doctrines referring to the person of Jesus Christ are not the same as doctrines referring to the practice and administration of sacraments.

Proverbs 4: 1-2 refer to parental instruction. Doctrine comes into play via the KJV and older translations of the scripture. Modern translations use the terms "precepts" or "learning" one could also use the word "advice." At any rate it does point more closely to point 1 in the definition above.

John 7: 16 also shows language issue older translations favouring doctrine while newer translations lean towards teaching. So yes, Jesus is teaching words that come from God but not every word that Jesus uttered falls into doctrinal position. When he refers to Peter as Satan he is not advancing the notion that Peter and Satan are identical. At most he is using the term figuratively to describe how Peter's objection runs contrary to Jesus' intention. Likewise when he refers to teachers of the law as "brood of vipers" he is not teaching that the teachers of the law are in fact serpents so much as he is figuratively describing how they are in opposition to God's intent.

We learn from those exchanges how Jesus feels about his mission and those who interfere with it. We are not instructed to call others Satan or serpents.

The entire bible has scripture that are abhorrent.

There are very unpleasant texts contained in scripture. They are included for a purpose. That purpose is not always to emulate. Sometimes it is used to horrify.

And scriptures are

god breathed, 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

And useful for teaching. It does not say that all of scripture is doctrine nor does it say that all of scripture presents positive instruction.

Paul

say you must teach only the bible. 1 Tim 1:3

Here he is speaking against false doctrine. At point of writing the New Testament did not exist. If, as you contend, he is referencing the Bible then Paul is speaking against teaching anything that we would consider New Testament. Since Paul routinely preaches Christ and him crucified he must be pointing to something that exists outside of the Hebrew scriptures at the time. Which defeats your claim.

he also stated the homosexuality is immoral. 1 Tim 1:10.

Or so translators think. I am not compelled that modern translators (who typically use homosexuality where older texts use "buggerers" or "sodomites". At issue, is whether or not Paul is addressing something which is consensual or assaultive. Because there is debate on this point it also indicates that not all religion is the same.

Whether they are true or not true is something for you christians to sort out, all I'm concerned with is that they are christian.

Just the same way that all doctors who have molested patients are the same as doctors who have not. It doesn't matter whether they are true doctors or not all that matters is that they claim to be.

Do you always paint with such a wide brush?

The fact they all label themselves christian is all that matters and they all follow the same book.

Do they though? Dr. Andrew Wakefield follows the same book in the same way that Dr. Fred Volkmar does?

And it wasn't, hence why I gave you several. The bible contains so many.

And you include the vague references intending to communicate that we are instructed to commit each of those atrocities as a regular part of our religious belief. Might you be wrong about that? Given that so many Christians do not commit those atrocities, have in fact, stood against those atrocities and died fighting against the powers of the day which supported such atrocities.

Yes atrocities are included in the Bible. Rare are they lifted up as desireable or faithful response. Certainly by the time one gets to the New Testament and Christianity is starting to coalesce one is seeing an evolution in how God desires the people of God to comport themselves in the world. Which is a differentiation rather than a sameness.

 

[Luce NDs]

Nu antes is a vicious forerunner to one way folk ... like pre science ... formerly observant and now blindsided?

Recall the look both ways and listen before taking the railroad to heaven ... really a street car of desire ...

 

[Delightful Life]

LOL. I do not know what it is with evangelicals and their obsession with weeding out potential gayness.

Jealousy?
"i want to be fabulous!"

 

[Jaebius]

Jealousy?
"i want to be fabulous!"

It is same-sex behavior that evangelicals see as sinful - not the homosexual orientation.

 

[Luce NDs]

Jealousy?
"i want to be fabulous!"

Gao*L glaring brilliance? Oh my sun ... shine ... explode in a flash ... alas it will blind Jae !

 

[blackbelt1961]

It is same-sex behavior that evangelicals see as sinful - not the homosexual orientation.

Its not just same sex, is all sin, and all mountains , I think being born again , to some it goes to there heads.

Keep praying till you get a break through , sounds like mans will not Gods