How does one "choose" a Belief System?

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Once upon a time people came to the realization that a cult based on a book drafted by anonymous writers - yet said to be holy - was an unwholesome basis for development of social civilization.

No wonder some stopped playing along.

And so, science emerged ...
  • At first science was simple. It was clear that what ‘the book’ said was not to be trusted. The people who imposed it were not to be trusted. So who knows what they had done with this ‘book’. Especially when it became clear that the sun did not rotate around Earth, a change of perspective was called for.
  • So some set out to study things for themselves. They did experiment - the opposite of accepting ‘facts’ in faith. They corresponded with others about their findings; so others too could find if they found the same outcome. And they then chronicled their findings: publishing what was agreed upon as ‘facts’. So others too could read and understand, experiment and know. For themselves. It was the democratization of realization.
Now, so many years further, we find the development has come around full circle ...
  • again believers uphold what is written in the books is to be held to be real (rather than “true”)
  • and that anything else is to be held “unscientific”
  • scientists are now being bribed, cajoled and bought, in order to present lies as if scientific
  • to the extent that they treat others and the world as if it is a machine
  • to the extent that people confuse reality with a model
It is necessary to reconsider the role and rank of science...
  • to realize that it is a language, a club, a cult, a myth; like so many others
You can believe it as much as you like, but science is not the purveyor of truth ...
  • too often ‘science’ forgets it is an abstraction
  • science as such does not exist
  • there are scientists- who are working together
  • the result of their work is commonly known, as science
  • but without scientists, there is no such thing as science
  • science is made by scientists
  • science is made up by scientists
To say this is tricky ...
  • because yes, there are those with deep understanding.
  • because yes, there are those whose insights create the quality of our culture.
But the rights of the few are not rites for the many, by which their wrongs can be ignored.

The clearest example of the lack of conscience in science is the proliferation of con science ...
  • many scientists are prophets of profit,
  • representatives of cults,
  • part of large scale people manipulation
  • for the manufacture of money.
In the past monks did their work anonymously ...
  • because the product was more important than the maker.
In present the work of scientists is presented as if independent on the views of the individual scientists...
  • objectivity however is always based on the individual scientists’ subjective observation
  • the existence of ‘objective reality’ is a deception
  • the autonomy and infallibility of science is a deception
  • science is intimately interwoven with corporate interest
This is the basis of the existence of con science ...
  • proponents are seen most clearly in the group of scientists who advocate the model of control
  • proponents of material science, computer control, corporate funding, and political/religious bias
I paraphrased the above from: Conscience and con science

Bottom Line:
  • Science has become a belief system ... to some extent the faith of many; even the cult to some.
Science and Conscience - there is more to it than a pun play of words.
 
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paradox3 said:
I see values and belief as completely interdependent. One of my major points of disagreement with Vosper. (Why are we talking about her again?)
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She just came to mind when thinking about which is the cart and which is the horse, so to speak.

Values and beliefs may be interdependent. But when one holds certain values they will tend to hold beliefs that support those values. She's an atheist preacher still committed to those values, but who thinks that the Christian beliefs surrounding them are superfluous or they are actually counter to those values. I think she has it wrong, about faith, as do many atheists. How people evolve to interpret their religious books says more about their values than about the value of religion. Those who call themselves atheists can be just as corrupt as Christians or just as compassionate, and vice versa. If they are greedy, or ruthless, they will develop a belief system - or, in the case of scriptures, a way of interpreting a belief system - that supports what they value. But regardless of the belief system, the values will determine the path it takes.
 
paradox3 said:
Welcome back @chansen ! Where have you been?
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Needed a break after being pissed that my post about Berserk/uccprogressive/Mystic being the herpes of Wondercafe (a disease that lays dormant and makes repeated unwelcome returns) was repeatedly deleted and I was banned from the thread.
 
Kimmio said:
She just came to mind when thinking about which is the cart and which is the horse, so to speak.

Values and beliefs may be interdependent. But when one holds certain values they will tend to hold beliefs that support those values. She's an atheist preacher still committed to those values, but who thinks that the Christian beliefs surrounding them are superfluous or they are actually counter to those values. I think she has it wrong, about faith, as do many atheists. How people evolve to interpret their religious books says more about their values than about the value of religion. Those who call themselves atheists can be just as corrupt as Christians or just as compassionate, and vice versa. If they are greedy, or ruthless, they will develop a belief system - or, in the case of scriptures, a way of interpreting a belief system - that supports what they value. But regardless of the belief system, the values will determine the path it takes.
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In your view values come first, then? I am not sure about that but it is an interesting question.

Agreed that atheists can be as corrupt or as compassionate as Christians. And as open or closed minded as well.
 
paradox3 said:
No, I wouldn't say that. And that was not my point.

I was suggesting that calling others "idiots" is not the best way to encourage conversation around here.
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Yet I called no one an idiot here. did I.
Waterfall stated that "some would say, time doesn't exist either." my reaction to that was. "Then they would be idiots." As the old saying goes "if the cap fits, wear it." that is all I was saying. Whomever believes time doesn't exist is an idiot.
 
Waterfall said:
Time is NOT real: Physicists show EVERYTHING happens at the same time
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Einstein never said time was an illusion. What he actually said was "The distinction between the past, present and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion. a huge difference.

And anyways I'm not actually writing this right now and you are not actually reading it. No one is invoking time whatsoever, we are all actually unmoving even our thoughts are. Have you thought how ludicrous that sounds. No wait you can't you're unmoving in thoughts and deeds.

As Chansen said "Time is the most observed thing in the world."
And as said "Time is the label we give to matter in motion." if there is no motion in thought or deed then nothing happens. But some how it does, I wonder why? (sarcasm)
 
Mendalla said:
I would say that there are several understandings of time and it is important to know which one you are dealing with.

In a room full of physicists, you need to pretty much go with what physics says (ie. the spacetime as described by the math of relativity). And that is a well-established theory, too. For instance, we use it to correct the clocks of GPS satellites relative to their ground stations. It has been argued that there is, in fact, no such thing as time but that's going beyond relativity and is still controversial.

Historians see time in terms of the changes that happen in society. This event happened before that event. There is an agreed upon time scale on which we pin these events so we can establish what happened first or what led to what.

Which is similar to how past time is experienced by us everyday but the events are smaller in scope. Graduation, first kiss, marriage, and so on instead of which king ruled when or which battle led to which other battle. The agreed upon scale is in years or even months instead of decades and centuries.

In everyday life, we experience time more subjectively and we can define it that way, but it's not something you can measure or describe mathematically. Living in the present means living in your own present as you experience it, but no one else can experience it that way. Sometimes an hour feels like forever, sometimes days fly by, but that's our experience, not reality. The clock still ticks at the same pace.

And, you're right, that puts on a similar footing with faith. Faith is something you experience in your own life and space but you cannot measure it in reproducible way or describe it mathematically or expect someone else to experience it the same way. Which is agnosticism, at least in a philosophical sense. You cannot prove your faith to me in a scientific way any more than you can prove that an hour at work goes slower than an hour having fun with your partner.

Which one do we live in? The everyday life one, of course. Though, again, dwelling on the past or fretting about the future may distort that experience in one direction or the other.
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In heavy situations time is slow ... in the light ... something else like the Leve Guy ... prying a way along quite fast ... leaving a patho 've aches?
 
chansen said:
Lunchtime doubly so.

People can say what they want. Doesn't mean we can not observe time.

And here's the thing - this is a conversation with people who think God is a real thing, some of whom are suggesting time may not be. We've jumped the shark.
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Sight unseen ... spoken of in myths denied by ortho peoples ... straight liners in space of all bents ...
 
monk said:
Under the Polarity Principle everything has poles or pairs of opposite charge:
  • One belief system says that a human being is separate from all others, designed to control others when they cannot or do not reason for themselves. This belief derives from man-made written codes that must be learned.
  • Another belief system says that each human is a cell of the collective web, and that all humans are connected as one entity, one interconnected humanity. This belief derives from Natural Law. Natural Law is not written, but intuitive and knowable by simple observation, reason, common sense, and deduction. ‘By your action, ye shall be known.’
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Sounds demiurge ante ... a proto form of agan ... a biological (medical) term presenting antagonists ... for balance ...

Some straight-liners can't weave and wobble though ... so light moves in folk*us as dark ... occult ways ... allows pinning and pining .. to resolves unknown points ... spots?
 
Pavlos Maros said:
Yet I called no one an idiot here. did I.
Waterfall stated that "some would say, time doesn't exist either." my reaction to that was. "Then they would be idiots." As the old saying goes "if the cap fits, wear it." that is all I was saying. Whomever believes time doesn't exist is an idiot.
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Thus timeless Gods ... stuck or Set ... an imaginary way? Political examples ... just for illustration of things some can't see ...

The alternate's Ide as demiurge ... two faces of Janus ... Roman bifurcation ... schism or s'iz sam ...
 
Pavlos Maros said:
Einstein never said time was an illusion. What he actually said was "The distinction between the past, present and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion. a huge difference.

And anyways I'm not actually writing this right now and you are not actually reading it. No one is invoking time whatsoever, we are all actually unmoving even our thoughts are. Have you thought how ludicrous that sounds. No wait you can't you're unmoving in thoughts and deeds.

As Chansen said "Time is the most observed thing in the world."
And as said "Time is the label we give to matter in motion." if there is no motion in thought or deed then nothing happens. But some how it does, I wonder why? (sarcasm)
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If we are settled on an odd rock shooting through space ... what's the consequence when working with a psyche that can encompass things beyond the confined state of what we know as a small point ... per plexus? Then plexus hints at entanglement when you search a lexis for definition ... tis metaphor more than ortho forth ... could end on para Moor ... deflatus and down ...

Love tends to knock the Eire out ... thus mindless time and nothing but heart beaten ... nothing left but the myth of soul ... a psychic impossibility for the orthodox that can't encompass round things ... producing Q's ... so excuse me ...
 
On the other hand, at the quantum level, a particle may be in a different place depending on whether it is observed or not. So at time X is particle Y in position A or B?

Thanks for answering my question, Pavlos. Now, if you don't mind, what do you "do" with your inexplicable sense? Just immediately file it under "Mystery - can't figure this one out"? Or, mull over it, stew on it, and eventually, probably, incorporate it in some way into your BS?
 
Pavlos Maros said:
Yet I called no one an idiot here. did I.
Waterfall stated that "some would say, time doesn't exist either." my reaction to that was. "Then they would be idiots." As the old saying goes "if the cap fits, wear it." that is all I was saying. Whomever believes time doesn't exist is an idiot.
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Agreed you did not call anyone here an idiot. But I stand by my earlier comment.
 
That idiots need to be coddled and protected because they are a danger to themselves and everyone around them?
 
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