How does one "choose" a Belief System?

[revjohn]

So, my BS is nothing. I "believe" in absolutely nothing.

I don't believe you.

I have been convinced, somehow, by one wyrd dream, that "everything will be okay".

Hence my doubt.

You have belief. It may not be obviously systematized. It is obviously there.

My BS is totally sketchy, totally does not include any sort of afterlife beliefs.

So you have a BS and the most difficult thing for you to do is pinpoint what that BS is (what to call it). Your BS has touch points in common with other BS while it also rejects huge swaths of those BS it does touch.

And you chose none of it?

You remind me of Neo criticizing doctrine as he sets out his own.

 

[Luce NDs]

If you don't like the term brainwashing. Should I use program, indoctrinate, inculcate, propagandize, condition, cajole, instill, persuade, implant, convince, influence. Sorry it is always deliberate, because it is the brainwashed doing the brainwashing. They know no better.First faith has zero basis in reality so there cant be a between, sorry. And are you seriously trying to say that when you were a baby/toddler/small child you could personally chose a belief in god let alone a faith?But that has nothing to do with faith, religion or the belief in a god.No it doesn't, it's the opposite in fact. Faith, religion, the belief in god kills more people than it ever helps.Lets go back in time to the 1970s with a hypothetical. If jesus came to you in a vision. a vision where you absolutely knew it was him and he told you to go to your friend Johns house and in an act of love and mercy, kill him, (For he shall reside with jesus forever, and you would want the best for your friend John wouldn't you.) Because he is suffering badly from smallpox. Would you do it. Or would you disobey your lord and savior. But you can, many people have deprogrammed themselves and left christianity.I wouldn't I not a dreamer.Stating fact is not criticizing. Explain what common ground there could be.
Religions kill people, atheism doesn't it couldn't be any less common.Only if you wish to class an educate as brainwashing. Though if it is in a religious school then it is reinforcing the brainwashing.
As for culture most people I know, are humans first and hold no allegiance to any country or creed. I was born in england and I live in england but that's as far as it goes. I do hold an allegiance to my family and friends. and will protect those to the best of my ability.

Not in my wash ... I seek to question all things, everything, God is the target as a total unknown ... except for wee bits ... they will wash ... but not on my watch ... got ta check eM out as Meme phase ... gathered thoughts as meme non ... something without thoughts ... memes? Tis part of the Greek Dark Thing ... its time gentle people ... here the pub gets private ... at it's closest!

You remind me of Neo criticizing doctrine as he sets out his own.

Can one escape it ... self indoctrination as a lesson in free wiles ... then there's the roadrunner conscience's ... mockingbird? Just can't bete as something second to nothing ... alternate abstract? Tis like transcendentalism becoming trans parent ... in soul as exchange of deeper intelligence than you are conscious of at present ... perhaps later when stepping back a bit to you as self ... you own personal vision from way out ... wind drifts? LGK's pneu mass ... Psyche moves on? Tis an alien phenomena once known as praxis or doings ... do everything with due respect ---Jude!

Should be inherent ... alas free wiles are easily corrupted ad the primal power tends toward totalitarian if without Q'Luce ... Lucid s stares ... odd looks back! Wondering about words and what person they are in: Primal, second beta, Trinitarian or further deviated ...

Tis all in the literature of myth and metaphor that will go far if unconscious ... that's pass 'nova for yah ... deep egge'n! Some people needle to be a pain without a clue as why ... they deny the question and seeking ... in a fix!

 

[paradox3]

You remind me of Neo criticizing doctrine as he sets out his own.

Or Gretta Vosper.

 

[revjohn]

Or Gretta Vosper.

It is not an uncommon phenomenon.

 

[Luce NDs]

It is not an uncommon phenomenon.

Doubt is like Didash ... and thence burned off ... nebula? Some quench allowed ... the water carrier ... head jug ... kind 've like a Cloes ET thingy ... that inherent gnawing of that which bit yah? Curios ... citii? That a site ... another spot to be in ... peeked at ...

 

[Ritafee]

Only if you wish to class an educate as brainwashing. Though if it is in a religious school then it is reinforcing the brainwashing.
As for culture most people I know, are humans first and hold no allegiance to any country or creed. I was born in england and I live in england but that's as far as it goes. I do hold an allegiance to my family and friends. and will protect those to the best of my ability.

Rationality and a pursuit of the truth should be equally applied to any culture that relies on a belief in money.

Show me the money ....

• Is money only the pieces of alloy and ‘paper’ that we hold in our hands and exchange with others ?

• Can I spend money without having any?

• Can I pay money for something in a shop with a plastic card, or by tapping my phone on a wireless terminal?

• Can I go online and spend money through the click of a mouse or the tap of a screen?

• Does the money that I spend virtually exist in reality somewhere else?

• In spending ‘our money’ are we transferring to someone else a thing that exists somewhere?

• Is there not a world wide belief system that somehow our money is located physically in some place ?

• Is it a pile of coins in the secure vault of a bank?

• When we spend our money through Paypal, Visa, or bank transfer has money literally moved from our vault to the recipients?

• Does our money have substance or reality or is it what the banks’ records tell us it is?

• Is Money, therefore, just a number on a statement, a figure on a screen, an idea in our head?

The whole world seem to agree that money can be measured and used and has values .

We rely on a shared acceptance of such values, a shared currency of belief in the reality of money .

Money is not really real but but still people choose it as their primary belief system.

It is very hard to be a money atheist, a non-believer in a belief system 'that makes the world go round'.

 

[Pavlos Maros]

As they grow up - in every culture - they learn about dangers, and are educated about what cultural ideas and institutions they must follow to protect themselves and others from those dangers in order to live a long and hopefully not too difficult life - and maybe extend that hope beyond themselves and their families.

Yet they are not enforced on them are they.

What is learned about how to achieve that often turns out to be wrong in hindsight - and it changes course - but it's not just religion doing the brainwashing. And religion also can change course.

However fear of god is being enforced they're told that god is watching all the time. etc...That is brainwashing and child abuse.

I wrote in another thread, about church today. My pastor spends a lot of time with thoughtful sermons trying to deprogram former evangelical fundamentalists and point them to more open minded, less literal, theological perspectives. Today he explicitly said, "Jesus' most important commandments were love God and Love your neighbour. Since we can't 'see' God, logically, we should love our neighbour." Maybe, we could just find common ground there?

I seriously doubt that. No religious person can love their neighbour. Unless of course the neighbour is of the same church.

 

[Pavlos Maros]

Rationality and a pursuit of the truth should be equally applied to any culture that relies on a belief in money.

And when you find one let me know.

Show me the money ....

Is money only the pieces of alloy and ‘paper’ that we hold in our hands and exchange with others ?

No.

Can I spend money without having any?

Many people do. So yes. They do it by borrowing money from the little bit of gold reserve a credit company or bank has.

Can I pay money for something in a shop with a plastic card, or by tapping my phone on a wireless terminal?

Yes.

Can I go online and spend money through the click of a mouse or the tap of a screen?

Yes.

Does the money that I spend virtually exist in reality somewhere else?

No not virtually/ But yes actually.

In spending ‘our money’ are we transferring to someone else a thing that exists somewhere?

Yes.

Is there not a world wide belief system that somehow our money is located physically in some place ?

No not a belief system. but a knowledge system because it is located in the gold reserves of the country you reside in.

Is it a pile of coins in the secure vault of a bank?

No it is the gold reserve of the country you reside in. In England that would be the Bank of England, in America Fort Knox. In Germany the Deutsche Bundesbank. In France the Banque de France. etc etc...

When we spend our money through Paypal, Visa, or bank transfer has money literally moved from our vault to the recipients?

No not literally, But our little piece of the gold reserve has shrunk because of it.

Does our money have substance or reality or is it what the banks’ records tell us it is?

It has substance. It is our little piece of the gold reserve.

Is Money, therefore, just a number on a statement, a figure on a screen, an idea in our head?

No.

The whole world seem to agree that money can be measured and used and has values .

Well it does.

We rely on a shared acceptance of such values, a shared currency of belief Knowledge in the reality of money .

Fity. As we should.

Money is not really real but but still people choose it as their primary belief system.

But it is real. It's in the gold reserves of the country you reside in. And on each note it says pay the bearer the of sum of x. But now days people just take that for granted. but the meaning is still valid.

It is very hard to be a money atheist amoneyist, a non-believer in a belief system 'that makes the world go round'.

fify. Exactly you can't because it is real. You can only be amoneyist if money did not exist. But it does.

(fify=Fixed it for you)

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Yet they are not enforced on them are they. However fear of god is being enforced they're told that god is watching all the time. etc...That is brainwashing and child abuse.
I seriously doubt that. No religious person can love their neighbour. Unless of course the neighbour is of the same church.

You need to get out more if you think all churches are teaching fear. I thought the same, several years ago, when an elder at the first church I stepped into during a very difficult time and existential crisis of sorts, told me the devil was after my soul. I like to joke that Jesus saved me from becoming a fundamentalist baptist. I pretty much ran from there, because I was emotionally vulnerable but I was given the good sense to understand that about myself. I do think she was sincerely trying to help me, though...as did others. They were very hospitable and they meant it, but the theology was messed up. Then, I explored the United Church of Canada, and there I had the freedom to question belief systems - even the range within the UCCan itself, and I am grateful. (I feel now that the UCCan is missing the something the evangelical churches have, in depth of feeling and the evangelical churches are missing what the UCCan has in depth of intellect. I seem to have found the proper middle ground for myself now in an 'emergent' church - coincidentally and by accident in a way that seems meant to be). Some churches, on the more progressive side 'are' actually with you in teaching that fear (of hell, of the wrath of a merciless god) has been used as a weapon of control. They have enough intellect to be able to unpack the metaphors, learn about the history of the time they were written, and not be literalistic - yet still maintain faith in God, as the substance of being, rather than an old man in the sky. My current pastor has a PhD, a degree in philosophy and has written a book.

It's absolutely untrue that no religious person can love their neighbour...meanwhile your contempt for religious people is palpable.

 

[Jaebius]

You need to get out more if you think all churches are teaching fear. I thought the same, several years ago, when an elder at the first church I stepped into during a very difficult time and existential crisis of sorts, told me the devil was after my soul. I like to joke that Jesus saved me from becoming a fundamentalist baptist. I pretty much ran from there, because I was emotionally vulnerable but I was given the good sense to understand that about myself. I do think she was sincerely trying to help me, though...as did others. They were very hospitable and they meant it, but the theology was messed up. Then, I explored the United Church of Canada, and there I had the freedom to question belief systems - even the range within the UCCan itself, and I am grateful. (I feel now that the UCCan is missing the something the evangelical churches have, in depth of feeling and the evangelical churches are missing what the UCCan has in depth of intellect. I seem to have found the proper middle ground for myself now in an 'emergent' church). Some churches, on the more progressive side 'are' actually with you in teaching that fear (of hell, of the wrath of a merciless god) has been used as a weapon of control. They have enough intellect to be able to unpack the metaphors, learn about the history of the time they were written, and not be literalistic - yet still maintain faith in God, as the substance of being, rather than an old man in the sky. My current pastor has a PhD, a degree in philosophy and has written a book.

Often when I'm worshipping with my evangelical Baptist church I wish that it was as intellectual as is the UCCanada.

 

[Mendalla]

Often when I'm worshipping with my evangelical Baptist church I wish that it was as intellectual as is the UCCanada.

It's a hard balance to hit. UU are even more intellectual than UCCan. I've had to sit through services that were basically a lecture with some meditation and singing added. That leans too far one way. The highly emotional dancing and singing with minimal thinking required skews too far the other way. I try to hit the golden mean myself but I suspect I end up leaning to the intellectual side.

 

[Luce NDs]

Fear of God causes some people to not learn large or alien words ... sometimes not even crack the spine of a tome with Enlightening myths as Levantine satyr ...

 

[Seeler]

Yet they are not enforced on them are they. However fear of god is being enforced they're told that god is watching all the time. etc...That is brainwashing and child abuse.
I seriously doubt that. No religious person can love their neighbour. Unless of course the neighbour is of the same church.

Pavlos, it's obvious that you don't know much about Christianity except perhaps the far right.

As a parent, grandparent, teacher, I have never told a child (or anyone) that God is watching them all the time, and certainly I have never indicated that they should fear God or held out the promise of heaven or hell (which are far down on my BS).

As for your statement "No religious person can love their neighbour. Unless of course the neighbour is of the same church." Could you explain that a bit. I'm serious. I do lay pulpit supply. I will be talking about Love of Neighbour at my next service.
My next door neighbour and friend is Roman Catholic (we have some great discussions). My across the street neighbour is Baptist. We've been friends for over 40 years. A few years ago we had a Buddhist student from Bhutan live with us for two years - I learned a lot about spirituality from him. I have other friends and neighbours who do not attend any church / some who self-identify as atheists. Yet you state as a fact "No religious person can love their neighbour."

 

[Pavlos Maros]

You need to get out more if you think all churches are teaching fear.

I don't think churches do anything. The holy books that the religious follow, incite violence, and instill fear.

My current pastor has a PhD, a degree in philosophy and has written a book.

And that is relevant how. that is merely an appeal to authority which is a fallacy.

It's absolutely untrue that no religious person can love their neighbour...

Did you read what I actually said "No religious person can love their neighbour. Unless of course the neighbour is of the same church. Already covered that."

meanwhile your contempt for religious people is palpable.

I have no contempt for religious people they're merely victims of the cult they have been brainwashed into. Hence why I say they cant love their neighbour. their doctrine, tenets, and holy books wont allow it.
If you look anywhere in the world. Let say America for instance, Where organizations are railing against civil rights. I.E. same sex marriages, womans right.etc etc. It is almost always religiously motivated.
Religion seeks to oppress not love. but it does it in the guise of making it's adherent believe they are doing the right thing.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

You are arguing from a very narrow, almost ideological, position about churches, that you insist on continuing to believe is the correct premise that applies to all of Christianity. You are not well informed about it. Maybe you've been brainwashed.

 

[paradox3]

When it comes to opposition to religion, @Pavlos Maros could give @chansen a run for his money.

Anyone remember Atheisto from the original WC? No shortage of folks who want to set us people of faith straight.

 

[paradox3]

You are arguing from a very narrow, almost ideological, position about churches, that you insist on continuing to believe is the correct premise that applies to all of Christianity. You are not well informed about it.

He may not want to be.

 

[Jaebius]

It's a hard balance to hit. UU are even more intellectual than UCCan. I've had to sit through services that were basically a lecture with some meditation and singing added. That leans too far one way. The highly emotional dancing and singing with minimal thinking required skews too far the other way. I try to hit the golden mean myself but I suspect I end up leaning to the intellectual side.

Oh man, Mendalla. How long have we known each other online and yet you chose to take my comment seriously?!

 

[Jaebius]

Pavlos, it's obvious that you don't know much about Christianity except perhaps the far right.

As a parent, grandparent, teacher, I have never told a child (or anyone) that God is watching them all the time, and certainly I have never indicated that they should fear God or held out the promise of heaven or hell (which are far down on my BS).

As for your statement "No religious person can love their neighbour. Unless of course the neighbour is of the same church." Could you explain that a bit. I'm serious. I do lay pulpit supply. I will be talking about Love of Neighbour at my next service.
My next door neighbour and friend is Roman Catholic (we have some great discussions). My across the street neighbour is Baptist. We've been friends for over 40 years. A few years ago we had a Buddhist student from Bhutan live with us for two years - I learned a lot about spirituality from him. I have other friends and neighbours who do not attend any church / some who self-identify as atheists. Yet you state as a fact "No religious person can love their neighbour."

Heck, I loved someone from another church enough to marry her.

Even forgave her for being Presbyterian.

 

[Pavlos Maros]

As a parent, grandparent, teacher, I have never told a child (or anyone) that God is watching them all the time, and certainly I have never indicated that they should fear God or held out the promise of heaven or hell (which are far down on my BS).

You may not have told them to fear god, but others have. However just because you haven't told them they should fear god, doesn't mean they haven't come to that conclusion, after all the bibles tell them they will be judge which means god is watching them at all times.You do realize there is a book attached to your religion that isn't all sweetness and light or filled with funny pages.

As for your statement "No religious person can love their neighbour. Unless of course the neighbour is of the same church." Could you explain that a bit. I'm serious. I do lay pulpit supply. I will be talking about Love of Neighbour at my next service.

You can talk about as much as you like, doesn't mean it's true. If your nieghbour does not think as you do. (That is the general you not you personally) They are ostracized, I am not saying this happens every where but it happens enough to show that christians do not love their neighbours.