How do we know what is true?
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Hermann
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Yes, "holy" is a meaningless term. It is an experience, an experience of experiencing reality as numinous, with awe and wonder. Because the term "holy" carries religious connotations, it is perhaps better to use "numinous." It essentially means the same, but is more of a secular term. Carl Sagan used it in preference to "holy," "divine," or "sacred."
Hermann
Well-Known Member
How do we know what is true?
"What is true?" one of his pupils asked Master Socrates.
"Only the ignorant dare to answer," replied Socrates.
"Oh man, proud man! Dressed in a little, brief authority. Most ignorant of what he's most assured."
-from MEASURE FOR MEASURE by William Shakespeare
"What is true?" one of his pupils asked Master Socrates.
"Only the ignorant dare to answer," replied Socrates.
"Oh man, proud man! Dressed in a little, brief authority. Most ignorant of what he's most assured."
-from MEASURE FOR MEASURE by William Shakespeare
That would be an interesting thread. "What Makes Something Holy?"
Hermann
Well-Known Member
Well, Waterfall, give it a go!
I am like a little child, literally stumbling through the world in awe and wonder. To me, all of the natural world feels holy, and even some human creations. But some humans creations seem more like miscreations, and I don't get that feeling of holy awe when contemplating them.
OUR HOLY LAND
Tread carefully
This land
Our land
Holy Land.
-Hermann
I am like a little child, literally stumbling through the world in awe and wonder. To me, all of the natural world feels holy, and even some human creations. But some humans creations seem more like miscreations, and I don't get that feeling of holy awe when contemplating them.
OUR HOLY LAND
Tread carefully
This land
Our land
Holy Land.
-Hermann
chansen
Had a point all along
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Go for it. I already think it's interesting that nobody can simply give me an answer to what appears to be a straightforward question: "What makes something 'holy' and something else not? What differences would we notice?"
Hermann
Well-Known Member
Well, chansen, I thought I gave you a straightforward answer.
Holiness, to me, is a feeling. What makes something holy is how or what we feel about it. Thus, holiness is not an objective measure but a subjective feeling and judgement.
"Holy cow!" is more than an outcry of astonishment. To Hindus, cows are holy, but so is most of the natural world. Aboriginal Canadians also perceive the natural world as sacred. So do I.
Holiness, to me, is a feeling. What makes something holy is how or what we feel about it. Thus, holiness is not an objective measure but a subjective feeling and judgement.
"Holy cow!" is more than an outcry of astonishment. To Hindus, cows are holy, but so is most of the natural world. Aboriginal Canadians also perceive the natural world as sacred. So do I.
GeoFee
I am who I am becoming...
Looking at the meaning of "holy" by analogy:
Were gold 100% pure, we might consider it holy.
"Carat purity is measured as 24 times the pure mass divided by the total mass:
where
is the carat rating of the material,
is the mass of pure gold or platinum in the material, and
is the total mass of the material.
Therefore, 24-carat gold is fine (also includes down to 99.95% gold by mass), 18-carat gold is 18 parts gold, 6 parts another metal (forming an alloy with 75% gold), 12-carat gold is 12 parts gold (12 parts another metal), and so forth.
In England, the carat was divisible into four grains, and the grain was divisible into four quarts. For example, a gold alloy of
fineness (that is, 99.2% purity) could have been described as being 23-carat, 3-grain, 1-quart gold.
The carat system is increasingly being complemented or superseded by the millesimal fineness system, in which the purity of precious metals is denoted by parts per thousand of pure metal in the alloy; e.g. 18-carat gold, 75% Au, would be called 750.
Carat conversion:
58.33% - 62.50% = 14k (acclaimed 58.33%)
75.00% - 79.16% = 18k (acclaimed 75.00%)
91.66% - 95.83% = 22k (acclaimed 91.66%)
95.83% - 99.95% = 23k (acclaimed 95.83%)
99.95 and above = 24k (acclaimed 99.99%)"
where
Therefore, 24-carat gold is fine (also includes down to 99.95% gold by mass), 18-carat gold is 18 parts gold, 6 parts another metal (forming an alloy with 75% gold), 12-carat gold is 12 parts gold (12 parts another metal), and so forth.
In England, the carat was divisible into four grains, and the grain was divisible into four quarts. For example, a gold alloy of
The carat system is increasingly being complemented or superseded by the millesimal fineness system, in which the purity of precious metals is denoted by parts per thousand of pure metal in the alloy; e.g. 18-carat gold, 75% Au, would be called 750.
Carat conversion:
58.33% - 62.50% = 14k (acclaimed 58.33%)
75.00% - 79.16% = 18k (acclaimed 75.00%)
91.66% - 95.83% = 22k (acclaimed 91.66%)
95.83% - 99.95% = 23k (acclaimed 95.83%)
99.95 and above = 24k (acclaimed 99.99%)"
Were gold 100% pure, we might consider it holy.
chansen
Had a point all along
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Edit: Let's move this to Waterfall's thread.
Science is missing something besides mysticism. It's missing prioritization of social concerns - take the technology problem and the monsters we've created with it. Scientists today are jealous gods. It was mysticism that lead to that study for example, not science.
"The only real valuable thing is intuition." - Einstein
It is a shame, IMO, that Einstein's theories are applied but the rest of his more intuitive and philosophical wisdom is nearly overlooked. He was an intelligent and beautiful person.
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Delightful Life
M&M, Cascadian Lovers
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*giggle*
when you learned how to tie your shoelaces, you learned how to tie your shoelaces first, right?
Delightful Life
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Philosophers operate by rules -- that's how they can actually investigate :3
A silly thing aboot philosophers is I think they are in the habit of creating their own jargon & language sometimes :3
Delightful Life
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So then, science is pretty darned neet; its amazing what us limited, imperfect and temporary beings can know...
So then folks, where in all of this does personal experience lie? What role(s) does it play?
So then folks, where in all of this does personal experience lie? What role(s) does it play?
I likely learned to tie my shoelaces by observation and practice. I don't reallly remember - but I learned the "correct" way according to how I was taught was the correct way. Of course, there are, intuitively, a number of ways that I could tie them that would work just fine. They do not have to be tied in a bow shape. I know that intuitively.
I likely learned to tie my shoelaces by observation and practice. I don't reallly remember - but I learned the "correct" way according to how I was taught was the correct way. Of course, there are, intuitively, a number of ways that I could tie them that would work just fine. They do not have to be tied in a bow shape. I know that intuitively.
I also don't base how to tie other string in a step by step process based on how I learned to tie my shoelaces - again, intuitively I know there are a number of ways - any of them would work. Any of them could get an adequate result.
And...I don't know how I know...I picked up bits and pieces of knowledge here and there...and I just know.
The wisdom is knowing shoelaces should be tied to avoid tripping.
Hermann
Well-Known Member
Yes, I agree. But intuition without reason is as one-sided as reason without intuition. Those two are, in my opinion, the two poles of the human intellect. Einstein used both, and so should we.
Scientists don't prioritize, at least not those who do pure research. We, society, prioritize their research and findings. And there are, of course, social scientists, psychologists, psychiatrists, and social philosophers. Although these are the so-called "soft sciences," it is up to us to prioritize their research and findings.