Greta- something new-DKS posted on FB

[revsdd]

I presume Gretta answered a call to Westhill United.

I wonder what the church was looking for when they issued the call.

That's a fascinating question.

I was speaking with someone recently who left West Hill along with his partner. It was because of Gretta, but not because of dislike of Gretta. They liked her well enough personally - but simply found no source of comfort or hope with her. It was an interesting conversation.

 

[BetteTheRed]

But presumably she does meet the needs of a certain type of seeker - one who has discarded orthodox visions of a theistic god but have needs to do social justice work in the company of those similarly spiritually inclined.

 

[Waterfall]

But presumably she does meet the needs of a certain type of seeker - one who has discarded orthodox visions of a theistic god but have needs to do social justice work in the company of those similarly spiritually inclined.

Can you explain the spirituality you're speaking of?

 

[revsdd]

But presumably she does meet the needs of a certain type of seeker - one who has discarded orthodox visions of a theistic god but have needs to do social justice work in the company of those similarly spiritually inclined.

I don't doubt that she's appealing to that demographic to some extent, although I haven't heard rumours of the masses beating down the doors of West Hill United Church on Sunday mornings. The question that many have is whether an overtly Christian church is the place for her to appeal to that demographic. Many think she should be Unitarian Universalist. I think she'd be a better fit with the UUs as well. Only she knows why she doesn't make that seemingly logical and natural move. I'm opposed to the review because I see no good coming out of it, but I see a lot of hurt people coming out of it whichever way the decision goes. It's a no-win situation.

 

[BetteTheRed]

Yes, which is exactly why it was a dumb decision to begin the process, The UCCan shoots itself in the foot again. I can't imagine why anyone thought this was a good idea.

And say what you will about her "belonging" in the UU, but what you're basically doing is shoving me, and the likes of me, out as well. And if we're from a smaller community, chances are we don't HAVE a UU to go to. It would have made absolutely the most sense to just not go down this road; as Gretta points out, it's the road of division.

 

[BetteTheRed]

Can you explain the spirituality you're speaking of?

The comfort of rituals, the discipline of service, the need for contemplation/prayer/meditation.

 

[Mendalla]

Yes, which is exactly why it was a dumb decision to begin the process, The UCCan shoots itself in the foot again. I can't imagine why anyone thought this was a good idea.

And say what you will about her "belonging" in the UU, but what you're basically doing is shoving me, and the likes of me, out as well. And if we're from a smaller community, chances are we don't HAVE a UU to go to. It would have made absolutely the most sense to just not go down this road; as Gretta points out, it's the road of division.

But can you not also see it from the point of view of a faithful but liberal Christian UCCan member or minister who does not want their church to become UU 2.0? Because that's where you'd be headed if you start dropping belief in God and Jesus as part of "essential agreement" with your basis of faith and embracing her non-theistic approach to church.

After all, we began with "progressive Christian" (the term was not used in those days, I don't think) churches that gradually opened up to a broader understanding of "religion" that did not require belief in a deity. Does not dropping that requirement and following her path put the UCCan on a similar road?

 

[Waterfall]

The comfort of rituals, the discipline of service, the need for contemplation/prayer/meditation.

I'm assuming the prayers are horizontal not vertical?

 

[BetteTheRed]

I'm assuming the prayers are horizontal not vertical?

In my case, definitely not a human-God "conversation", no. I'm more inclined to meditation, myself, listening for the voice of the Universe.

I don't belong to Gretta's congregation. I belong to one with a small progressive group, inside a larger congregation with quite a wide range of beliefs. We still use lots of God language. I have challenged our rev, whom I like a great deal, to do a "Female God" only service - she has promised.

 

[revsdd]

Yes, which is exactly why it was a dumb decision to begin the process, The UCCan shoots itself in the foot again. I can't imagine why anyone thought this was a good idea.

And say what you will about her "belonging" in the UU, but what you're basically doing is shoving me, and the likes of me, out as well. And if we're from a smaller community, chances are we don't HAVE a UU to go to. It would have made absolutely the most sense to just not go down this road; as Gretta points out, it's the road of division.

I understand. The issue that needs to be decided is whether the church is to be simply a good works organization, or is it a faith community which does good works. Either way, the church will stand for something, some will disagree with what the church stands for and some will leave the church because they disagree with what the church stands for. You simply can't be everything to everyone.

 

[GordW]

But presumably she does meet the needs of a certain type of seeker - one who has discarded orthodox visions of a theistic god but have needs to do social justice work in the company of those similarly spiritually inclined.

Serious question...
You obviously see this as an expression of Christian church. What makes it so? THere is the rub. What is the bare minimum to be a Christian faith community? THat is the discussion I want us to have, just not tied to a specific individual. Preferably before we actually talk about whether or not to review anybody's fitness for ministry

 

[chansen]

Serious question...
You obviously see this as an expression of Christian church. What makes it so? THere is the rub. What is the bare minimum to be a Christian faith community? THat is the discussion I want us to have, just not tied to a specific individual. Preferably before we actually talk about whether or not to review anybody's fitness for ministry

I understand. The issue that needs to be decided is whether the church is to be simply a good works organization, or is it a faith community which does good works. Either way, the church will stand for something, some will disagree with what the church stands for and some will leave the church because they disagree with what the church stands for. You simply can't be everything to everyone.

But you already have such a wide range of individual churches. You have, within your denomination, churches which are extremely liberal and downplay the whole God thing, and still some rather conservative congregations where even Rainbow Skittles aren't allowed.

So it's not like you're some homogeneous collection of churches and beliefs. You're already a hodge-podge. Why not embrace the hodge-podginess?

Or, if lines have to be drawn, then start drawing them on the conservative side of the ledger as well. If some people are embarrassed to be in the same denomination as Gretta, I assume some people who are not embarrassed by Gretta, can come up with names of ministers they aren't thrilled to share a denomination with. Because, that's really what this is about. No one in Toronto Conference even spoke to a member of the congregation of West Hill United. About the "fitness for ministry" of their minister. This is about people who Gretta does not minister to, taking exception to her fitness for ministry. That's like leaving a bad Yelp review for a restaurant you don't eat at.

 

[Luce NDs]

To be able to the hoody-podgy thing would a person need to be open minded (soul) and open-hearted?

Now an open mind appears to suggest some form of learning curve ... and thus an alteration in the line ...

As a child I overheard adults say that I would amount to nothing since I didn't have a proper family (single parent thingy) and thus as soon as able I extricated myself from a group that appeared to not want me. (@ Pr. Jae, does this sound like a person wishing attention, or just trying to figure out what gives with isolating personalities? Perhaps just a "woe is me" character). I returned to church when approximately 50 ... with an attitude of curiosity ... I wondered why these people questioned why there no young people in church.

Why there are no young people? Is this an exclusion principle that few can see? I can see the process although many can't ... is that me seeing something that isn't there?

There are church members in this and oter churches I've attended that belive me contrary to their way of believing they are doing right (the same as their grandparents and parents ... by right copying, or copyright). As I am differing in opinion they believe me the devil in church!

We are attempting to dialogue with surrounding churches in an effort to join like minded congregtions ... I am accused of treachery, heresy and treason to the old way!

So it be and the dame thing must die ... Christ's bride ... due to severe isolation ... a metaphor for an unfed mind/soul/psyche ... that develops into a brute force ... the desire of Kings so the battle can go on and on ...

I thus concede and will assist the divination ...

Can anyone relate this observation to the psychological term Dilution Theory ... or even baptism by fire ... if the community is angered and fearful will they bite their neighbours in emotional phitz ... rabi ED behaviour?

Can you imagine Christians in a rogue state? I see eM every Sunday. They insist I've come to church with an agenda ... and they haven't? Face it people as a gift of powerful controlling gods (desires) everyone has an agenda and gets hostile when someone lets it out in public ... Pan Door's AB ox ... the KISS of power?

Is there an opposing entity to power mongering ... like dark, shadowy thoughts of co-operation? Couldn't be in a divined world ... where the ups and downs are isolated ... old highland myth about lo-landers! That'd be eM lyres on de Moors ... telling myths about the people of the lie ... not a mire cat in sight as sentient to relations or trying to start relations ... a metaphor for bean screwed dupe ... and on top of that not knowing IT!

 

[Luce NDs]

The best solution to kings is undermine them with an alternate desire ... this amounts to that verse in Corinthians about understanding without love ... if there is no desire to understand ... will you be the object of misunderstanding or the subject of po' understanding ... this attribute appears to diminish dais by deis ... as persons get frustrated in an overcrowded situation by a world in siege ... and few understand that we are our own worst enemy ... an understanding that is beyond the topic?

Sort of like a island or ship full of rats ... hell-bent to breed without preparation, or cares about excessive conception of the opposing kind ... free passions as you like it --King Henry VIII (do it to eM as you please and when you please ... anywhere) ... this is our role model that slowly churns ... in a chi zy whorl 'd ... really, where do thoughts go? We appear to have lost them in a manifestation ...

 

[Pontifex Geronimo 13]

What is the bare minimum to be a Christian faith community? THat is the discussion I want us to have

The mission statement of our church is "To lead as many as possible to passionately follow Jesus." Everything we do points back to that.

Of the 10 things the UCC has on the agenda, not one remotely resembles that goal. Did the Cruxifusion crowd have no input? Clean water is in the jurisdiction of municipalities, living water is in the jurisdiction of churches.

Why would a church be in a position that it is trying to aspire to the bare minimum?

 

[Luce NDs]

Would living water include flowing intelligence in a transparent mode? Most authoritarian types believe secrecy is best for corrupt things ... and thus the abstract secrecy for those trying to depose real corruption ... only in your imagination they say!

Burning desires are hard to hide though except if they been whited with alien intelligence ...

Did you know that water is an old concept as seminal icon ... or the symbol of the media of mind as compared to the high energy burners ... these could be hay burners or related to a horses behind ... hermeneutically!

In social setting these are obvious ... why the anti socialism in republican surroundings ... consider how they despise themselves as Latin derivations ...

 

[revsdd]

So it's not like you're some homogeneous collection of churches and beliefs. You're already a hodge-podge. Why not embrace the hodge-podginess?

And, as I've suggested above, people have left because of the hodge-podginess of the church. Whatever you stand for, some will be offended and some will leave. If you stand for nothing, some will leave because they stand for something. If you try to stand for everything some will leave because they believe in something in particular. If you try to stand for something in particular those who stand for something else may leave.

Or, if lines have to be drawn, then start drawing them on the conservative side of the ledger as well. If some people are embarrassed to be in the same denomination as Gretta, I assume some people who are not embarrassed by Gretta, can come up with names of ministers they aren't thrilled to share a denomination with. Because, that's really what this is about. No one in Toronto Conference even spoke to a member of the congregation of West Hill United. About the "fitness for ministry" of their minister. This is about people who Gretta does not minister to, taking exception to her fitness for ministry. That's like leaving a bad Yelp review for a restaurant you don't eat at.

There have certainly been more conservative ministers removed from pulpits after reviews, even when they have had the support of the majority of their congregations.

Having said that, removing a conservative minister who at least believes in God is at least in theory more difficult than removing a publicly proclaimed atheist minister because it's actually rather clear that a publicly proclaimed atheist minister can't really be in agreement with the faith statements of the Church, all of which are theistic.

As to talking with people in the congregation, that's I assume going to be a part of the Review process - talking to those who raise the concern, talking to the minister whose the subject of the concern and talking to the congregation that minister serves.

 

[GordW]

The mission statement of our church is "To lead as many as possible to passionately follow Jesus." Everything we do points back to that.

Of the 10 things the UCC has on the agenda, not one remotely resembles that goal. Did the Cruxifusion crowd have no input? Clean water is in the jurisdiction of municipalities, living water is in the jurisdiction of churches.

Why would a church be in a position that it is trying to aspire to the bare minimum?

Another statement about the mission of the church is "to be a demonstration plot for the Kingdom". Many of the issues raised in the list (which in fact is in another thread so I wonder if you might have meant to post this there) would touch on that.

 

[Luce NDs]

If Christ is the heart's de Light ... is this levity buried or just sublime in the light of how words are despised by authority ... at least the physical gods as they manifest against common populations knowing anything ...

What really does the heart know or does it respond autonomously? Thus the unknowing factor ... and while working all the time the po' deviate looses IT ... becomes dull in hue ... in UV or M'N is this near purple an unseen colour?

What would a person expect of something kept under cover of the hue m'n ... a dark secretive thingy, mostly due to avarice that must be disposed of by emotional baggage theory ... offloading? Then too ... IT is out there --- Webster (and his definition of the deep blue sea)! You can get caught up between (in) it and that deviate form called seminal thinking ... the seed of wisdom needing mire to plant it in ... that's the dirt on things unseen ... like Pigpen ... an attribute of Charlie Shultz. In a cartoon you can stir up chit and thus it takes flight ... as in the invention of wings for auld Batz ... a base of evolutionary theory as you learn to think further into the ethers ... an Aaron non-entity until man discovered compressibility. The opposite of this is fugacity ... leading to legacies and fiords.

Ever see a leg of sea ... these enter a crack in the land a hard place for water to stay above board ... and thus sublime in a seminal well ... the whetted cycle as a well rounded thought provided by lass at the well head ... and men struggle for small heads ... so they can survive knowing little ... a wee spot to be in ... in po'ethic humus (or bloody odd chit as cereous)?

 

[crazyheart]

How you can help: Supporting Gretta and West Hill during the UCC Review Process

Wednesday, August 19, 2015 at 04:44PM
This past May, Gretta was notified by the Toronto Conference of The United Church of Canada that she would be required to submit to a review of her “effectiveness”. This review is intended to examine her theological beliefs as expressed at the time of her ordination. This is the first time that an ordained minister in the United Church has been subjected to this type of review and a special process was sought by the Conference from the General Secretary of the General Council. Although the impetus for it is not fully clear, it appears to stem from a significant increase in recent media attention being paid to Gretta and West Hill United because she has publicly identified as an atheist, a label which is consistent with her lack of belief in a theistic, interventionist, supernatural being called God.

Gretta Speaks at Burlington Baptist in 2008
We find it troubling that no one representing any level of the church has been to visit West Hill in over a decade to see what we are doing or to discuss our ministry. No one has found the work we do at West Hill important enough for the wider church to suggest it be the focus of a conversation at Presbytery, Conference, or elsewhere.
Similarly, no one from any of the church courts has tried to engage Gretta in dialogue about her beliefs and ministry despite her accessibility and willingness to respond to any who inquire. The requirement to appear before a review committee is the first invitation to dialogue but it falls within the disciplinary structure of the denomination.
Despite the lack of invitation to dialogue on the part of the church, Gretta and her legal counsel asked the General Secretary and her team of advisors to enter into a conversation with a view to exploring an alternative to the normal judicial process. That request was denied. The response from the church continues to be no dialogue, no conversation.
During this time many of you have been asking “what can we do?” In the hopes that a conversation with the church would be forthcoming we kept saying……”stay tuned”. Now that the church has formally drawn that line in the sand we are asking for your assistance. There are a number of ways you can be involved and we are asking you to do that.
These are links to some of the ways you can get involved. If there is something else you would like to do and you have the know how and energy to do it, please be in touch (That's our special email address for this initiative) and let us know.

• Letter Writing
• Social Media
• Friends of Gretta Vosper Association: Financial Support for Legal Costs
• Financial Support for West Hill United

Thanks so much for becoming involved. We firmly believe, and have always believed, that this work is work that belongs within The United Church of Canada. Thank you for helping us make sure that it remains so.
Update on Wednesday, August 19, 2015 at 12:00AM by West Hill United
Don't forget to spread the opportunity to share news of or support for Gretta and West Hill but posting to Facebook or Twitter or cotherwise sharing with your friends and contacts. If you are within a United Church, that night be ther perfect place to start! And thank you. Let usnknownifnyou have Andy further organizational needs, do connect with us,
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