Grace and the Law

[revsdd]

I was thinking of this passage:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans 3:31

Paul does not say that the law/Law is abolished. He says that justification comes by faith and not by law. The law is upheld because, ultimately, the purpose and goal of law/Law is the righteousness of all God's people - Jew and Gentile.

 

[revjohn]

But don't we often quote the common problematic verses and forget that Jesus also ,quoted Leviticus when he told us to love our neighbour as ourselves Leviticus 19:18 and John who proclaims "Jesus as the lamb of the world" which is one of the central themes of Leviticus (sacrificial system)?

Is He only talking to the Jews?

Jesus was definitely speaking to a Jewish audience when he responds to which is the greatest commandment (Deuteronomy 6: 5) and the next (Leviticus 19: 18).

Is Jesus speaking about the commandments from a legalistic perspective or is Jesus using the commandments to instruct and inform? Is the answer either/or or perhaps both/and?

John is probably speaking to a Jewish audience as Gentiles aren't going to grasp the significance of Jesus as lamb.

In that instance John is not appealing to a legalist interpretation since lambs have several sacrificial purposes so much as John is appealing to an understanding that goes beyond legalism.

 

[Luce NDs]

The law is a guideline ... some dis emanation is required to deal with the unknowns ...!

 

[unsafe]

This is just my take on this ------

There is much confusion and conflict on this subject -----

The scriptures clearly say that we who are Born Again are no longer under the Law --we are under Grace ----The New Covenant of Grace Covers all People ---The Laws were for the Jews only and are still in effect today for non Born Again Jews since the Gentiles were never included anyway and were a cursed people do to their rebellion against God --

1Timothy 1 8-11 this is verses 8-9-8 We know that the law is good(R)if one uses it properly.9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous(S)but for lawbreakers and rebels,(T)the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious,----

God gave both Covenants so both are good and perfect in their design -----Grace being the better ------

The Mosaic Covenant was incomplete and the New Covenant completed what the Old Covenant didn't ----

The Law was perfect and good but man wasn't and couldn't keep the Laws -----God said obey theses commands receive the Blessing ---disobey receive the Curse -----God already knew that man would not keep the Laws He gave ----He gave the Laws to increase Sin and to show Israel they needed a Savior ---Without Laws there is no transgression -----

Treasury of Scripture--(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Romans 5:13----so since man could not keep the Laws ----

The Curse was in place all the time ------Galatians 3 NKJV ---- https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians 3

-----The Law Brings a Curse

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”[e]11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”[f]12 Yet the law is not of faith, but“the man who does them shall live by them.”[g]

The Mosaic Law had a purpose ----Exodus 19 tells you that God tells Moses that if the people obey His commands He will make them His special people -----They agree to obey all The Lord puts forth ------hence the Mosaic Laws --------so under the Law you were directed and judged by the law which determined justification and standing before God --works determined everything ----

The Law was used as a tutor (schoolmaster )until Jesus came ---- Galatians 3:24 NKJV ----24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

The Law was known as the Ministry of Death --The letter of condemnation and the letter that kills ----

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Corinthians+3&version=NKJV---

In 2 Corinthians 3 ----3 Times the law is spoken of ----v 7 7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones ----v 6 ---new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit;[a]for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.------v1 --epistles of commendation to you or letters of commendation from you?

The Law required 2 persons to be affective -----you do for God --God does for you -----

God says in His word that when a New Covenant is in place ---the Old One is discarded -- ----now remember that applies only if you Receive The New Covenant which is Spirit ---Accepting the One who sacrificed His Life spilling His Precious Blood to free us From all sin once an for all --- So if we have not accepted Christ we are not in Right standing with God ------

Hebrews 8 NKJV ---A New Covenant ---READ ALL ---https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews 8&version=NKJV

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.8 Because finding fault with them, He says:“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.



Grace through Faith is free ---no works required only ----now many say there are works required as we have to accept the Person -----the Greek word for accept is ---

1209. dechomai►
Strong's Concordance-----Definition:I take, receive, accept, welcome.

1209/dexomai("warmly receptive, welcoming") means receive with "ready reception what is offered" (Vine, Unger, White,NT, 7), i.e. "welcome with appropriate reception" (Thayer).


So there is no works in welcoming or receiving or taking what has been already made available to us ------

So Grace only has 1 Person doing and giving ----Jesus -----we don't have any works to do to receive His Grace which is different from the Old Covenant ---all we have to do is embrace what Jesus has done ---

The Blessing replaces the Curse -Roman 6 ---GOD'S WORD® Translation
Certainly, sin shouldn't have power over you because you're not controlled by laws, but by God's favor.

Grace finished the Old Covenant as now we only have the Blessing in place ----the Curse is no longer in God's plan for us --we have been given All spiritual Blessing to obey God's will for our lives --This is why it is so important to know what Jesus accomplished for us on the cross

The Righteous no longer need the written laws ----This is Jesus Speaking here

Hebrews 8 ---10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds[b]I will remember no more.

The I will is God's Promise to us ----

So what about sin now --we will still miss the mark but it will not be imputed to us but Grace does NOT give us a license to sin we will sin less because the Love we have to please and follow our Father in Heaven and the power Grace gives us will help us in our weakness to overcome and put away sin -----but it is important to understand that our Spirit is new but we still have that old sin Nature in our thinking and that is why we need to renew the mind to God's ways and get rid of our old way of worldly thinking ------scripture says don't be conformed to this worlds way of thinking but renew your mind so you know what is good and acceptable to God ----To Grow in Grace in my opinion is to do what God's will is for us not what are will is for us ------

People in my personal opinion who still preach the Law and say all people are under this Covenant still-- are doing a big disservice to The New Covenant of Grace and slapping Jesus in the face for all He went through for us to be free of the written Law which God's word says is the Ministry of Death because it continually brought the Curse due to man's failure to keep them ---

 

[Luce NDs]

@un safe ... eliminating, or stifling conditions of knowledge?

So those that become aware (apocalypse) of conscience are in sin because of their conception of the previously un-conscience ... or the somnolent part opposing sentience? They would be opposed to freewill ... or some oppression of the wiles until calmed!

Be still my heart ... such donning of awareness causes a great turbulence inde sole ...

 

[Waterfall]

Jesus was definitely speaking to a Jewish audience when he responds to which is the greatest commandment (Deuteronomy 6: 5) and the next (Leviticus 19: 18).

Is Jesus speaking about the commandments from a legalistic perspective or is Jesus using the commandments to instruct and inform? Is the answer either/or or perhaps both/and?

John is probably speaking to a Jewish audience as Gentiles aren't going to grasp the significance of Jesus as lamb.

In that instance John is not appealing to a legalist interpretation since lambs have several sacrificial purposes so much as John is appealing to an understanding that goes beyond legalism.

So where did Paul come up with the idea of Gentiles being under grace if Jesus and the other disciples never taught that during their lifetime? Was it the resurrection that encouraged Paul to switch from the mosaic law to grace, in order to include the Gentiles?
In some passages, Paul refers to the gospel he is preaching as "my gospel", why is that?
By whose authority was Paul told to preach the gospel of grace?

 

[Luce NDs]

It was all A'Pall to Paul who was also Ath eist ... or one believing in de light insteda of the Shadow ... where Levite intellect fell ...

Such things can A' vale ... the clearest I'Z as missing the past if anti-A'Deist (redacted form of Atheist) if you don't follow all words in curiosity about conscious things ... then there is the unconscious mind ... somnolently encountered ... and most people have difficulty retaining dreams ... as they fear there may be A'Moor tuit ... and biblically when in the sign given ... you don't know what's beyond ... appears as myth a' logical ...

If you're expansive on this you'll be all over dah place and those institutionalized can't follow ... the rational of free form Poe Etics ... in the rye form!

Can one get drunk on poetics as a dark form? Ask Charles Baudelaire ... the bode of fiery Eire? Kerygma as a charisma that'd knock you out ... see stars and specks of light? Too much can cause a mortal to burn up ... a concern of Dean Martin as he desired to burn others in tiny bubbles ... le gassiest of theories ...

 

[revsdd]

So where did Paul come up with the idea of Gentiles being under grace if Jesus and the other disciples never taught that during their lifetime? Was it the resurrection that encouraged Paul to switch from the mosaic law to grace, in order to include the Gentiles?
In some passages, Paul refers to the gospel he is preaching as "my gospel", why is that?
By whose authority was Paul told to preach the gospel of grace?

Grace was always present. It's a common misunderstanding of Christians that somehow grace only came into the picture with Jesus. The very act of God making a covenant with Israel that they would be God's people and that God would be their God was an act of divine grace. Israel had not "earned" that covenant. It was made by the grace of God. It was also understood in Israel that the whole earth and all its peoples belonged to God. That's inherent in the Creation story. All that exists only exists because it was created by God and therefore belongs to God. The story of the post-flood covenant with all humanity (long before the existence of Israel) was a picture of divine grace. Jesus certainly would have understood that universal concept of divine grace. It can be said (as with the letter to Titus) that Jesus was the embodiment of divine grace; divine grace lived out.

Paul sometimes contrasted the gospel he preached to Gentiles with the Gospel often preached by legalists, who appear to have been his opponents. The presenting question was whether Gentiles needed to be circumcised in order to become Christians. In other words, were Gentiles being brought into the covenant God had made with Israel or were they being invited into a new type of covenant. Paul believed the latter. Paul's view theoretically "won out" although many Christians have never really fully grasped the covenant of grace and continue to want to apply the law selectively to suit their own understanding of right and wrong, and to demand that other Christians must accept their interpretation. We see that here on a regular basis.

Paul's authority to preach his gospel to the Gentiles came first from his encounter with the resurrected Jesus, and then from what is known as the Apostolic Council, which, although putting down minimal expectations, agreed that circumcision was not required of Gentile believers.

 

[Waterfall]

Is this then the "mystery of the gospels" Paul speaks about in Ephesians 6:19? That Grace was always with everyone?

 

[Waterfall]

Grace was always present. It's a common misunderstanding of Christians that somehow grace only came into the picture with Jesus.

THIS...is what I have been wondering. Why do we tend to separate the OT from the NT and present the NT as the beginning of God's "grace"?

 

[revsdd]

THIS...is what I have been wondering. Why do we tend to separate the OT from the NT and present the NT as the beginning of God's "grace"?

I'm not aware that "we" do that, although some might.

The New Testament is not the beginning of grace. If God is full of grace, and if God is never changing, that God has always been full of grace. The difference represented by the New Testament is the account and impact of the life of Jesus, which is grace lived out, and how the life of Jesus should impact the lives of his followers. It is the account of the fulfilment of the Law, and it is Jesus' interpretation of how the Law is to be lived out - love for God, love for one another, love for neighbour and even love for enemy. Jesus, in essence, taught that the Law of Moses was a law of love, and he fulfilled it.

 

[Waterfall]

This is just my take on this ------

There is much confusion and conflict on this subject -----

The scriptures clearly say that we who are Born Again are no longer under the Law --we are under Grace ----The New Covenant of Grace Covers all People ---The Laws were for the Jews only and are still in effect today for non Born Again Jews since the Gentiles were never included anyway and were a cursed people do to their rebellion against God --

1Timothy 1 8-11 this is verses 8-9-8 We know that the law is good(R)if one uses it properly.9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous(S)but for lawbreakers and rebels,(T)the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious,----

God gave both Covenants so both are good and perfect in their design -----Grace being the better ------

The Mosaic Covenant was incomplete and the New Covenant completed what the Old Covenant didn't ----

The Law was perfect and good but man wasn't and couldn't keep the Laws -----God said obey theses commands receive the Blessing ---disobey receive the Curse -----God already knew that man would not keep the Laws He gave ----He gave the Laws to increase Sin and to show Israel they needed a Savior ---Without Laws there is no transgression -----

Treasury of Scripture--(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Romans 5:13----so since man could not keep the Laws ----

The Curse was in place all the time ------Galatians 3 NKJV ---- https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians 3

-----The Law Brings a Curse

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”[e]11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”[f]12 Yet the law is not of faith, but“the man who does them shall live by them.”[g]

The Mosaic Law had a purpose ----Exodus 19 tells you that God tells Moses that if the people obey His commands He will make them His special people -----They agree to obey all The Lord puts forth ------hence the Mosaic Laws --------so under the Law you were directed and judged by the law which determined justification and standing before God --works determined everything ----

The Law was used as a tutor (schoolmaster )until Jesus came ---- Galatians 3:24 NKJV ----24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

The Law was known as the Ministry of Death --The letter of condemnation and the letter that kills ----

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Corinthians+3&version=NKJV---

In 2 Corinthians 3 ----3 Times the law is spoken of ----v 7 7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones ----v 6 ---new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit;[a]for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.------v1 --epistles of commendation to you or letters of commendation from you?

The Law required 2 persons to be affective -----you do for God --God does for you -----

God says in His word that when a New Covenant is in place ---the Old One is discarded -- ----now remember that applies only if you Receive The New Covenant which is Spirit ---Accepting the One who sacrificed His Life spilling His Precious Blood to free us From all sin once an for all --- So if we have not accepted Christ we are not in Right standing with God ------

Hebrews 8 NKJV ---A New Covenant ---READ ALL ---https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews 8&version=NKJV

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.8 Because finding fault with them, He says:“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.



Grace through Faith is free ---no works required only ----now many say there are works required as we have to accept the Person -----the Greek word for accept is ---

1209. dechomai►
Strong's Concordance-----Definition:I take, receive, accept, welcome.

1209/dexomai("warmly receptive, welcoming") means receive with "ready reception what is offered" (Vine, Unger, White,NT, 7), i.e. "welcome with appropriate reception" (Thayer).


So there is no works in welcoming or receiving or taking what has been already made available to us ------

So Grace only has 1 Person doing and giving ----Jesus -----we don't have any works to do to receive His Grace which is different from the Old Covenant ---all we have to do is embrace what Jesus has done ---

The Blessing replaces the Curse -Roman 6 ---GOD'S WORD® Translation
Certainly, sin shouldn't have power over you because you're not controlled by laws, but by God's favor.

Grace finished the Old Covenant as now we only have the Blessing in place ----the Curse is no longer in God's plan for us --we have been given All spiritual Blessing to obey God's will for our lives --This is why it is so important to know what Jesus accomplished for us on the cross

The Righteous no longer need the written laws ----This is Jesus Speaking here

Hebrews 8 ---10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds[b]I will remember no more.

The I will is God's Promise to us ----

So what about sin now --we will still miss the mark but it will not be imputed to us but Grace does NOT give us a license to sin we will sin less because the Love we have to please and follow our Father in Heaven and the power Grace gives us will help us in our weakness to overcome and put away sin -----but it is important to understand that our Spirit is new but we still have that old sin Nature in our thinking and that is why we need to renew the mind to God's ways and get rid of our old way of worldly thinking ------scripture says don't be conformed to this worlds way of thinking but renew your mind so you know what is good and acceptable to God ----To Grow in Grace in my opinion is to do what God's will is for us not what are will is for us ------

People in my personal opinion who still preach the Law and say all people are under this Covenant still-- are doing a big disservice to The New Covenant of Grace and slapping Jesus in the face for all He went through for us to be free of the written Law which God's word says is the Ministry of Death because it continually brought the Curse due to man's failure to keep them ---

@revsdd, Here we hear about the "new covenant of Grace", what is so new about it if it always existed? Is this post true?

 

[revsdd]

@revsdd, Here we hear about the "new covenant of Grace", what is so new about it if it always existed? Is this post true?

For someone who gets so defensive when the "Prosperity Gospel" is mentioned to summarize someone's belief - because the words aren't in the Bible she says - unsafe is here willing to use a phrase that doesn't appear in the Bible - "New Covenant of Grace" - to summarize what she means.

Anyway, the words are hers and I can't speak to what she means by them. For me, grace means knowing that I have the freedom to live as a child of God to the best of my ability without having to fear the consequences for those times I've failed to live as a child of God should live. It is new in the sense that the law has been fulfilled and no longer has power.

 

[airclean33]

Grace was always present. It's a common misunderstanding of Christians that somehow grace only came into the picture with Jesus. The very act of God making a covenant with Israel that they would be God's people and that God would be their God was an act of divine grace. Israel had not "earned" that covenant. It was made by the grace of God. It was also understood in Israel that the whole earth and all its peoples belonged to God. That's inherent in the Creation story. All that exists only exists because it was created by God and therefore belongs to God. The story of the post-flood covenant with all humanity (long before the existence of Israel) was a picture of divine grace. Jesus certainly would have understood that universal concept of divine grace. It can be said (as with the letter to Titus) that Jesus was the embodiment of divine grace; divine grace lived out.

Paul sometimes contrasted the gospel he preached to Gentiles with the Gospel often preached by legalists, who appear to have been his opponents. The presenting question was whether Gentiles needed to be circumcised in order to become Christians. In other words, were Gentiles being brought into the covenant God had made with Israel or were they being invited into a new type of covenant. Paul believed the latter. Paul's view theoretically "won out" although many Christians have never really fully grasped the covenant of grace and continue to want to apply the law selectively to suit their own understanding of right and wrong, and to demand that other Christians must accept their interpretation. We see that here on a regular basis.

Paul's authority to preach his gospel to the Gentiles came first from his encounter with the resurrected Jesus, and then from what is known as the Apostolic Council, which, although putting down minimal expectations, agreed that circumcision was not required of Gentile believers.

What you said here is find rev. Now what do you get from this.
1Co 3:12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw--

1Co 3:13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.

1Co 3:14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.

1Co 3:15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
This seems very easy rev.to understand . If what you do is right it will stand and you will be reward. How in which way. As you already have life eternal ?
If you fail you will suffer Loss?If you have received Christ Jesus savior , I don't believe GOD will take it away. So what loss?

 

[airclean33]

For someone who gets so defensive when the "Prosperity Gospel" is mentioned to summarize someone's belief - because the words aren't in the Bible she says - unsafe is here willing to use a phrase that doesn't appear in the Bible - "New Covenant of Grace" - to summarize what she means.

Anyway, the words are hers and I can't speak to what she means by them. For me, grace means knowing that I have the freedom to live as a child of God to the best of my ability without having to fear the consequences for those times I've failed to live as a child of God should live. It is new in the sense that the law has been fulfilled and no longer has power.

Unsafe really needs no help from me . But I could not believe what I found .
Jer 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,

1Co 11:25 In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me."

2Co 3:6 who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not in a written code but in the Spirit; for the written code kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb 8:8 For he finds fault with them when he says: "The days will come, says the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;

Heb 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred which redeems them from the transgressions under the first covenant.

Heb 12:24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel.

I think it be be possible you have forgotten GOD hid 10 of the Lost tribes of Israel . They are all over the world.But even better GOD has opened the door to all That would receive Jesus as Lord and Savior.
The Law is for the world and must be fallowed to the letter.The Covendent Abraham is GODS Word. So is the Covendent Through Christ Jesus.

 

[revjohn]

So where did Paul come up with the idea of Gentiles being under grace if Jesus and the other disciples never taught that during their lifetime?

If is rather an important word. Where would Paul come up with the idea "IF" Jesus and the other disciples never taught that during their lifetime?

I'm of the opinion that Jesus and the other disciples actually did teach about grace during their lifetimes though it may not be front and centre because it actually is the foundation to the Jewish experience of God.

Who was it that chooses Abraham? Why?
Who is it that favours Isaac over Ishmael? Why?
Who is it that favours Jacob over Esau? Why?
Who is it that gives Joseph dreams and an ability to interpret them?
Who is it that brings a pitch crusted cradle along the Nile to the bathing spot of Pharaoh's daughter? Why?

And the narrative goes on and on and on.

Was it the resurrection that encouraged Paul to switch from the mosaic law to grace, in order to include the Gentiles?

Not exactly. It was an encounter with the resurrected Christ that appears to have turned Paul's thinking around to start. We aren't sure of the instruction he received while off in Antioch or who was responsible for that.

In some passages, Paul refers to the gospel he is preaching as "my gospel", why is that?

I suspect it has less to do with Paul claiming possession of the gospel and more to do with Paul's responsibility for the gospel. In the same way I find it easier to refer to Waterford United Church as "my" church.

By whose authority was Paul told to preach the gospel of grace?

Is the good news of God's grace fundamentally different from the good news of Jesus? Are the blind owed their sight? Are the lame owed the use of their legs? Are the deaf and the dumb owed the ability to hear and speak? Are prisoners owed freedom? Are the dead owed life? What is the good news in Jesus redeeming any of that if it isn't grace?

 

[Luce NDs]

If grace is a given in the linguistic sense and god gave everything ... the fact that we are part of everything is redundant to those that would like to separate the parts destructively so as to take possession of what wasn't theirs in the first place as part of something immense or vast!

The divining comedy is thus fallout as humus! Poe ethics as some dream that those blind to essences can't see ... the devil as an advocate of lesser being under the surface ... thus can set the earth a' trembling before busting out in bubbles!

 

[unsafe]

Jesus is Grace in the New Covenant -----

John 1:14-18New King James Version (NKJV)
The Word Becomes Flesh

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’”
16 And[a]of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace.17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son,[b]who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

 

[Luce NDs]

Can an essential mind-soul-psyche believe what it sees in the man-made chaos or truth as presented by a lyre?

Perhaps the consequence of an un conscious thingy ... thus denied as impossible dream by those preferring perfect matter ... no metaphysics whatsoever ...

Such things spook the fixated ...

 

[revjohn]

If grace is a given in the linguistic sense and god gave everything ... the fact that we are part of everything is redundant to those that would like to separate the parts destructively so as to take possession of what wasn't theirs in the first place as part of something immense or vast!

God's grace is given. I'm not convinced that it is a given.