Grace and the Law

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Waterfall

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Is Grace always above the law in your opinion?

What is the relationship of Law and Grace?
 
Waterfall, can you help me with the capitalization of law.

Are you referring to "law" as in ten commandments, or the law of the one with the biggest fist, or our country's law, as in the court system.
 
In order to understand the 2 , one needs to believe in the Absolute

Absolute Truth, Judgement, Love, Grace, Morality, Mercy


If the Creator wears all these hats, then how does God Judge without violating His Grace, Mercy, and Love?


Others say well God can simply Judge then choose to forgive or give grace , but where does that leave the victim? In a state of unfair Judgement. Furthermore where does that Leave Gods Judgement with no meaning
 
blackbelt1961 said:
In order to understand the 2 , one needs to believe in the Absolute

Absolute Truth, Judgement, Love, Grace, Morality, Mercy


If the Creator wears all these hats, then how does God Judge without violating His Grace, Mercy, and Love?


Others say well God can simply Judge then choose to forgive or give grace , but where does that leave the victim? In a state of unfair Judgement. Furthermore where does that Leave Gods Judgement with no meaning
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What do you mean by believing in the Absolute?
 
I hear it said all the time that Christians are no longer under the law because now we have Grace. What exactly does this mean?
 
The Absolute in this case Is God , defined as
one ness
pure Isness
Utmost Being


Philosophy describes it as this , from wiki pedia


The Absolute, also represented through other concepts as the Source, Fountain or Well, the Centre, the Monad or One, the All or Whole, the Origin (Arche) or Principle or Primordial Cause, the Sacred or Holy or Utterly Other (Otto), the Form of the Good (Plato), the Mystery, Nirvana, the Will, the Ultimate, the Ground or Urground ("Original Ground"), is the concept of an unconditional reality which transcends limited, conditional, everyday existence. The manifestation of the Absolute has been described as the Logos, Word, the Ṛta or Ratio (Latin for "reason").

It is sometimes used as an alternate term for the more commonly used God of the Universe, the Divine or the Supreme Being ("Utmost Being"), especially, but by no means exclusively, to express it in less personal and more impersonal representations. The concept of the Absolute may or may not (depending on one's specific doctrine) possess discrete will, intelligence, awareness, or a personal nature. It is sometimes conceived of as the source through which all being emanates. It contrasts with finite things, considered individually, and known collectively as the relative.
 
The Law (of Moses - including Leviticus) was not given to Gentiles. It was given specifically to Israel as a sort of national criminal code. It was and is not binding on Gentiles. Gentiles have what Paul referred to in Romans as the law written on our hearts. An innate knowledge of right and wrong; a conscience.

Either law can convict us when we violate it. israel can and does ignore the Law of Moses; Gentiles can and do ignore our conscience. Grace is God's mercy in effect, offering forgiveness of either violation, revealed most perfectly in Jesus. It points out the seriousness of our actions when we do not choose the way of God, but it also reveals God's compassion. Grace and Law/law together are justice.
 
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RevSdd

if you can further explain how God dealt with His Judgement issue and why it had to be that way without violating His own Laws and Glory. Since God wears all hats

since you can probally explain it better than me
 
revsdd said:
The Law (of Moses - including Leviticus) was not given to Gentiles. It was given specifically to Israel as a sort of national criminal code. It was and is not binding on Gentiles. Gentiles have what Paul referred to in Romans as the law written on our hearts. An innate knowledge of right and wrong; a conscience.

Either law can convict us when we violate it. israel can and does ignore the Law of Moses; Gentiles can and do ignore our conscience. Grace is God's mercy in effect, offering forgiveness of either violation, revealed most percectly in Jesus. It points out the seriousness of our actions when we do not choose the way of God, but it also reveals God's compassion. Grace and Law/law together are justice.
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So are you saying that the Old Testament isn't relevant to Christians except possibly when we need backup for NT scriptures?
What about as blackbelt mentions, that God's/our grace may further victimize a victim because of the lack of law?
 
Waterfall said:
So are you saying that the Old Testament isn't relevant to Christians except possibly when we need backup for NT scriptures?
What about as blackbelt mentions, that God's/our grace may further victimize a victim because of the lack of law?
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Nope. Not saying that at all. First, Law is only a small part of the Old Testament. Second, while not binding on Gentiles, the Law is still a revelation of God and God's priorities. But the Law was/is given to Israel, not to the Gentiles. Gentiles learn a lot about God by reading the Law, just as Canadians learn a lot about the United States by reading the US Constitution. But neither are binding to those who are not under it.
 
Waterfall said:
Is Grace always above the law in your opinion?
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No. Grace is not always above law. Grace at best is a response to law.

We are presented with the law and we (Christians) believe that law is something we will be measured by and ultimately fall short of. At that point God makes a judgment to treat us justly (according to the law) or graciously (without regard to merit).

The law is a guide which instructs in Reformed Theology more than it is a rule which must be enforced.

In Christian Theology the Law is meant to refer to the Torah and something we are set free from through Christ. In as much as the law informs us as to what behaviours God desires it is a useful tool in modifying our own behaviour.
 
Waterfall said:
Also, why do Christians tend to ignore Leviticus?
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Part of Leviticus is about how to life the life of a righteous Israelite. Since most Christians are not concerned with how to be a righteous Israelite it isn't particularly helpful at the detail level. The broad strokes level indicate the direction that God would like to see behaviour flow.

But even that becomes problematic.

We shouldn't have men lying down with men but we can eat shellfish and pork. As if somehow the rules governing a righteous Israelite's sex life are more holy and protected than their diet.

Paul would later go on to say that for the believer nothing is forbidden even if all things are not profitable. Those holier than Paul who believe it their Christian calling to police others more than they do themselves think Paul is wrong and what was once forbidden is always forbidden.
 
Waterfall said:
Didn't the Apostle Paul delight in the law and condemned abolishing the law with faith?
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Paul was not a Gentile. In any event his point in Romans 7:22 was that the Law said one thing but his body would regularly choose the other way. (Interpreted by and applied to a Gentile - our conscience tells us one thing but we choose another.)

I'm not aware of Paul condemning abolishing the Law with faith. Not aware of him ever saying that had happened either. Ephesians (almost certainly deutero-pauline) speaks of Jesus abolishing the Law with his flesh in order to bring both Jews and Gentiles under the same covenant (that's a loose paraphrase). Jesus himself said he had not abolished the Law but had fulfilled it.
 
revjohn said:
Part of Leviticus is about how to life the life of a righteous Israelite. Since most Christians are not concerned with how to be a righteous Israelite it isn't particularly helpful at the detail level. The broad strokes level indicate the direction that God would like to see behaviour flow.

But even that becomes problematic.

We shouldn't have men lying down with men but we can eat shellfish and pork. As if somehow the rules governing a righteous Israelite's sex life are more holy and protected than their diet.
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But don't we often quote the common problematic verses and forget that Jesus also ,quoted Leviticus when he told us to love our neighbour as ourselves Leviticus 19:18 and John who proclaims "Jesus as the lamb of the world" which is one of the central themes of Leviticus (sacrificial system)?

Is He only talking to the Jews?
 
revsdd said:
I'm not aware of Paul condemning abolishing the Law with faith. Not aware of him ever saying that had happened either. Ephesians (almost certainly deutero-pauline) speaks of Jesus abolishing the Law with his flesh in order to bring both Jews and Gentiles under the same covenant (that's a loose paraphrase). Jesus himself said he had not abolished the Law but had fulfilled it.
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I was thinking of this passage:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+3:31
 
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