Given a God, why Jesus?

[Jaebius]

Alternate questions come to mind...

Given a God, why not Jesus?

Given Jesus, why God?

 

[Luce NDs]

Do we "live only in the present"? Good question. Physically - yes, although some have pointed out that our bodies are a sort of time machine moving steadily from the past to the future, with the current point on the journey being the present. Emotionally and psychologically I'd say we live in all three - influenced by events of the past and hopes/fears for the future. Spiritually? Well, I believe that God is eternal - therefore God exists in the past, present and future. Indeed, God exists beyond past, present and future. God exists beyond time and beyond space. God simply exists. If past, present and future all belong to God and if we belong to God who is eternal then in some way we are also eternal. I believe that I have always been known to God and will always be known to God. So perhaps we don't live "only in the present" - but we do live always "in the presence" - the presence of God.

Love the comment ... goes contrary to what I've been told by many ministers to live only in the present ... they miss the presence as much larger dimension ... that is always there ... leaving us to get unstuck. This is a direction from the greater weaver ... go wobble and weave a bit! Such a great time can one have an eternal domain ... except for those stuck with one meaning for the metaphor! They miss so much more ... especially in the de-tailings ...

 

[Luce NDs]

Alternate questions come to mind...

Given a God, why not Jesus?

Given Jesus, why God?

Because light on a stick will always cast a Shadow ... things stick people know ...biblical scholars don't unless they get beyond the book that is just an initiation of light of w'z dumb ... it moves ... one brute breath and it is gone ...

 

[Pavlos Maros]

You dance around the only points that matter: Papias derives his information from eyewitnesses and those trained by eyewitnesses.

Which is irrelevant. as Mark is still not a first hand account. Whether Papias or Mark claim it is directly from the mouth of Peter, it still matters not. How do we know it is . Oh wait the bibles tells us so. Or third/fourth hand accounts.
It doesn't matter, if as you claim they are confirmed by another historian, they are all using the same sources to get the information. Pointless!

There is no contemporaneous evidence, so eyewitnesses there are none.

The title of the OP is "If God, why Jesus?" I'm trying to answer what I believe is the "why".

I know. However you haven't shown anything convincing. Nothing more than any other religion could. The "Why" in the title is asking why yours/Christianity is better than the others. Giving an answer without making it more convincing than any other religion is pointless.

 

[Mendalla]

Given a God, why not Jesus?

The Gospel message, or at least the traditional Christian understanding of that message (Jesus dying to save us from sin), is hardly an inherent part of theism. One can easily believe in God without buying into that. Jews and Muslims do it, and I know some UUs who do though their God is a bit more generic panentheism. So the answer is, "because there is no need for Jesus in some conceptions of God."

Given Jesus, why God?

That is an interesting one. I certainly know UUs who think of Jesus as a teacher and preacher without any reference to any kind of divine status as a prophet or "son of God". That said, the entire context of Jesus' life and teaching is the belief in a "Father". I'm not sure one can truly follow Jesus without believing in God. At the very least, you need to acknowledge and deal with Jesus' theism. You cannot just push it aside since that also pushes aside a lot of his message.

 

[Geo]

Sorry folks...I've been super busy and today I'm on the couch laid out with a head cold. Alas, I will try to respond now to some of the many comments if I can rouse my brain to a more acute state of consciousness!

 

[Geo]

And you say you're not an agnostic.

Nicely said, @Geo.

Haha, well even though I know I could be wrong, I have undeniably made up my mind about my belief that Jesus is who he claimed he was!

 

[Geo]

But you're not appealing to a "rich philosophical case for it." You're appealing to a large number of eyewitness testimonies. A big round number of supposed eyewitnesses thrown into a book of the claims you're saying counts as history.

That doesn't even deserve a moment's thought.

It's not just me that acknowledges that the New Testament documents are historical. Even atheist historians will give you that.

Also, I believe there is a rich philosophical case for Christian truth as a whole. The fact that the books of the New Testament are the most well-documented and reliable texts in ancient history is only a small part of that.

 

[Geo]

@Mystic, you really nailed it in the last of your posts! @Pavlos Maros simply has nothing on you, since the quality of (their) posts declined rapidly into a sort of bizarre, illogical denial of the facts you presented. I think it just reveals that even if you could offer satisfactory "proof", (they) would still refuse to accept it due to a clearly closed-minded attitude, perhaps based on some sort of personal vendetta against Christianity - or at least religion.

 

[Luce NDs]

@Mystic, you really nailed it in the last of your posts! @Pavlos Maros simply has nothing on you, since the quality of (their) posts declined rapidly into a sort of bizarre, illogical denial of the facts you presented. I think it just reveals that even if you could offer satisfactory "proof", (they) would still refuse to accept it due to a clearly closed-minded attitude, perhaps based on some sort of personal vendetta against Christianity - or at least religion.

Is close mindedness a universal subject of a spatial objective by those entrained in stones?

 

[chansen]

It's not just me that acknowledges that the New Testament documents are historical. Even atheist historians will give you that.

Also, I believe there is a rich philosophical case for Christian truth as a whole. The fact that the books of the New Testament are the most well-documented and reliable texts in ancient history is only a small part of that.

If you really think that, there isn't much point in continuing.

The people who make that claim are those who start from the position that the bible is correct, and ignore all evidence to the contrary. There is a lot of bad evidence, like I was talking about before, coming from supposed archaeological sources. This is where you really screw over your own faith, when you make claims like this. Now, when some young Christian looks into these claims, perhaps to reinforce their faith or to answer personal doubts, and they look at what is passing for evidence, they'll look at you like you're a con man. "The *fact* that the books of the New Testament are the most *well-documented* and *reliable* texts in ancient history?" You've set someone up for a massive letdown. You're almost trying to lose your brightest and most inquisitive. I'm fine with that. I doubt you are.

 

[paradox3]

That said, the entire context of Jesus' life and teaching is the belief in a "Father". I'm not sure one can truly follow Jesus without believing in God. At the very least, you need to acknowledge and deal with Jesus' theism. You cannot just push it aside since that also pushes aside a lot of his message.

This has always been my problem with the Jesus as a moral teacher (only) argument. I just don't think we can take Him seriously without considering that He was a Jewish mystic.

P.S. Are you completely sure you are a UU?

 

[Pavlos Maros]

@Mystic, you really nailed it in the last of your posts! @Pavlos Maros simply has nothing on you, since the quality of (their) posts declined rapidly into a sort of bizarre, illogical denial of the facts you presented.

What "Facts" He has no facts.

I think it just reveals that even if you could offer satisfactory "proof",

As said there is no proof. And you and he know that, if you were at all honest. Else it wouldn't be called faith, would it.

(they) would still refuse to accept it due to a clearly closed-minded attitude,

Lol What is your definition of close minded. Is it closed to all and every religious belief, bar your own. You are the very definition of close minded.

perhaps based on some sort of personal vendetta against Christianity - or at least religion.

I have a deep destain for religion because it kills for the most idiotic of reasons. And it controls the minds of it's adherents.
I have pity for it's adherents, for they are victims. When someone here says they believe totally. I often reply good for you, as long as you don't harm anybody because of it.
Sadly though they would given the right reasons, as they cannot control nor oppose their belief.

 

[Mendalla]

Are you completely sure you are a UU?

There's always a bit of doubt on that count (else this thread would not exist) but, then again, there are Christians in our ranks so I could be a UU Christian (or Christian UU, forget which they prefer).

And, of course, even if I start going to a Christian church, I could be "UU" - Unitarian in the sense of not believing in the Trinity and Universalist in the sense of believing that God's gift of Grace is given to all. After all, historically, that's where UU'ism came from in the first place.

 

[Luce NDs]

Wee d' emons have to investigate churches to see what they are up to in attempts sublimate us, otherwise to put us down oppressively!

Sometimes it really is a low down hostile action for those bragging to follow the Levite ... a lifting personality.

Then there are those that feel even personality cannot be defined as it is part of the irrational concept of mind ... a kind of divine neur*Osis ...

You know Osis? There's even a reverse Oz'm Osis ... a thing of whetted specialty ... sharp as water boarding ... sapience?

 

[Delightful Life]

Given a g_d why Jesus?

1 He is great at parties -- remember the best wine you have ever had....this is beyond that.

2 Jesus' bones n muscle tastes great n his blood is simply divine n its nonfattening gluten free kosher halal cholesterol free and is burgeoning with hilaritas and agpe. Its amazing that our govts havent outlawed it

3 Jesus rhymes with awesome. Shh. Its g_ddess n sie can do anything

4 Without Jesus all of us here probably would never have met