Gender assignment

[Seeler]

@DaisyJane - if he would be interested in sharing it, I would be interested in reading it.

Me too.

 

[Ritafee]

While my stomach too made a lurch when I read Jae's post ... I am not in favor of banning him from threads.

All my sons are amazing people, and my youngest is a truly remarkable man. He will leave such attitudes as Jae's in his dust.

Yet we 'grownups' are allowed to not tolerate being offended on their behalf.

 

[Luce NDs]

Natural reaction with rebound of learning about a strange person's real intent?

Imagine gabriel as horn blower ... or darker whistle blower as whistler's mother ... it is said there is a relation to Thomas Carlisle as great player of sitar ... or was that hidden satire? One can confound desires with the latter essence!

It too follows ...

 

[Ritafee]

Gender is a socially and politically constructed concept. (To the best of my understanding):

• Sex declares itself anatomically in utero and is clearly evident and acknowledged at birth.

• Disorders of sex development (DSDs), are all medically identifiable deviations from the human binary sexual norm.

• Sex assignment in individuals with DSDs can be complex and depends on a variety of genetic, hormonal, and physical factors.

• The 2006 consensus statement of the Intersex Society of North America did not endorse DSD as a third sex.

• Identical twin studies demonstrate that environmental factors, especially post-natal non-shared events, predominate in the development and persistence of gender dysphoria.

• Studies suggest that social reinforcement, parental psychopathology, family dynamics, and social contagion-facilitated by mainstream and social media, all contribute to the development and/or persistence of GD in some vulnerable children.

• A recent study has documented an increasing trend among adolescents to self-diagnose as transgender after binges on social media sites such as Tumblr, Reddit, and YouTube.This suggests that social contagion may be at play. In many schools and communities, there are entire peer groups “coming out” as trans at the same time.

• Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5) - GD is listed therein not due to the discrepancy between the individual’s thoughts and physical reality, but due to the presence of emotional distress that hampers social functioning.

• The DSM-5 also notes that a diagnosis is required for insurance companies to pay for cross-sex hormones and sex reassignment surgery (SRS) to alleviate the emotional distress of GD.

• GD resides in the mind not in the body.

• Children with GD do not have a disordered body—even though they feel as if they do.

• A child’s distress over developing secondary sex characteristics does not mean that puberty should be treated as a disease to be halted, because puberty is not, in fact, a disease.

• Experts on both sides of the pubertal suppression debate agree that, 80 to 95 percent of children with GD accepted their biological sex by late adolescence.

• It is now alleged that discrimination, violence, psychopathology, and suicide are the direct and inevitable consequences of withholding social affirmation and puberty blockers or cross-sex hormones from a gender dysphoric child.

• Yet, the fact that 80 to 95 percent of gender-dysphoric youth emerge physically and psychologically intact after passing through puberty without social affirmation refutes this claim.

• This means that 5 percent to 20 percent will persist in their GD as young adults.

• Currently, there is no medical or psychological test to determine which children will persist in their GD as young adults.

• Pre-pubertal children with GD who persist in their GD beyond puberty are more likely to also persist into adulthood.

• The Endocrine Society therefore regard it reasonable to affirm only children who persist in their GD beyond puberty, as well as those who present after puberty.

• Not all adolescents with GD inevitably go on to trans-identification.

• Cross-sex hormones inevitably result in irreversible changes for all patients.

• Furthermore, over 90 percent of people who die of suicide have a diagnosed mental disorder.

• There is no evidence that gender-dysphoric children who commit suicide are any different.

• Suicide prevention should be the same for GD as for all children: early identification and treatment of psychological co-morbidities.

There is no single family dynamic, social situation, adverse event, or combination thereof that has been found to destine any child to develop GD.

The treatment of GD in childhood with hormones effectively amounts to mass experimentation on, and sterilization of, youth who are cognitively incapable of providing informed consent. There is a serious ethical problem with allowing irreversible, life-changing procedures to be performed on minors who are too young to give valid consent themselves; adolescents cannot understand the magnitude of such decisions.

Ethics alone demands an end to the use of pubertal suppression with GnRH agonists, cross-sex hormones, and sex reassignment surgeries in children and adolescents. The American College of Pediatricians recommends an immediate cessation of these interventions, as well as an end to promoting gender ideology via school curricula and legislative policies. Healthcare, school curricula and legislation must remain anchored to physical reality. Scientific research should focus upon better understanding the psychological underpinnings of this disorder, optimal family and individual therapies, as well as delineating the differences among children who resolve with watchful waiting versus those who resolve with therapy and those who persist despite therapy.

The American College of Pediatricians is a national medical association of licensed physicians and healthcare professionals who specialize in the care of infants, children, and adolescents. The mission of the College is to enable all children to reach their optimal, physical and emotional health and well-being.

* I am in agreement - to the best of my understanding - with the above Excerpts from:
A printable Adobe Acrobat (pdf) copy of this position is available by clicking here: Gender Dysphoria in Children

 

[Ritafee]

All right ... all of that said ... knowing what I know now ... that gender is a social construct ... and knowing how gender stereotypical influence adversely affected my own childhood - I am grateful that I was not medically tampered with as a child or adolescent (aside from vaccinations) - and I would never impose on children mine or anyone else's - whether they be intersex or male or female - gender norms. An individual's character/ethics/integrity/outward appearance should not be measured as normal feminine or normal masculine anymore than they should be measured by an individual's race or creed. I am in no way shape or form 'judging' those that disagree with my viewpoint on this.

I hold that males should be males and that females should be females.

Anatomically that is how they are usually born... born as far as I understand the biblical context - born to be human - and exercise free will to determine right from wrong.

 

[DaisyJane]

In terms of Jae's behaviour, I do agree with the thread ban. I think one can have difficult conversations without being a jerk and Jae would do well to learn that. There are many ways Jae could have discussed his concerns about gender neutral parenting without making it personal.

The unfortunate thing is that I would genuinely be interested in having a conversation about what makes a man? a woman? Why? Why not? If it is important to someone, why? Beyond "the Bible said it is". I would be interested in having that conversation with Jae if he could engage in a meaningful way.

 

[BetteTheRed]

We're talking about young adults here as if they have no bodily autonomy of their own until some magic birthday.

And gender isn't entirely a social construct.

And on top of gross genitalia presentations, chromosomes, hormone anomalies, there's also "brain structure".

 

[Ritafee]

I do not assume that Jae is deliberately being a jerk or that it was a deliberate personal attack on @DaisyJane or her children. I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt ... it may just as well be possible that he has a 'learning disability' when it comes to social 'norms'. I have no way of knowing that 'for sure' it his 'intent to offend'. There are other posters in this forum that I find blatantly offensive under the guise of 'their own sense of license to be rude and intolerant' who are not 'banned'. It seems to me that Jae is singled out for disciplinary action for his 'misconduct' and then everyone in turn gives license to each other to 'provoke him to further 'perceived offense' when he further defends his first 'position'. Or it could be that Jae is deliberately trying to be offensive ... and if such is the case ... not being offended 'speaking for myself' is better option than retaliation:

Directed at Jae before the 'banning' of Jae:

You are willing to make judgements on others, but not put yourself in their shoes

*** bangs head on walll ***
Of course, there are many like @Jae who make judgement calls.

I am asking people to ignore Jae in this thread. I know it is hard, but, I think we have done this way before.

Now back to the topic. Jae has taken his leave of us once again & has announced it on the last post thread.

I am sure that you do think that, Jae.

I would vehemently disagree that these "things" are generally true.

The 'big' offense:

Congratulations on the successful parenting of your oldest boy.

Directed at Jae after 'the big' offense:

You need to realize that I am profoundly offended by that statement and will be reporting it to my fellow moderators.

Jae, that is an a**hole comment. I will report it, just to show what a jerk you are being.

Thanks Pinga. I was just heading off to do so, but will let you. I am shaking (with anger) and it may be a few minutes before I can type.

So Jae. I am asking this genuinely, so stop being a jerk for a second.

I am sorry @DaisyJane that you would be exposed to such a remark.

While I am offended, I also know that my youngest's character, and quite frankly his brilliance, will outshine any hatred or a**hole remarks. I am only sorry he has to share the world with such small-minded thinking and people.

@Jae - I will await the moderators responding to the report. I do hope that you will take the time to ponder how you should respond to the message from myself and others re your post.

Your comment about my eldest, by omission indicated something derogatory about my youngest. I don't appreciate your games. You think you are funny and bright. You're not. You're an a**hole and you know it. You seem to enjoy these games, which are less than Christian I would suggest.

@Jae , you seemed to have missed that part of your post. Or you are being exceptionally "jae-ish" today.

That is an appalling and insulting comment, and it does insinuate that DaisyJane somehow failed in parenting her younger son. Jae - you should be ashamed of yourself for that one.

That merely shows your inability to read and retain important information and is not something to gloat about.

Jae, consider this a warning to watch your behaviour. Don't make insulting comments like the one you made to DaisyJane and then pretend innocence. I have no doubt that you knew exactly what you were doing and saying. Tread very cautiously. Anything more - any complaint about how you're being treated or spoken to over that comment or any complaint about this warning and you will be banned from the thread.

Jae's 'wrong' opinion:

I made no insulting comment revsdd.

For the record, Jae has been banned from this thread. Carry on.

 

[Mendalla]

I do not assume that Jae is deliberately being a jerk or that it was a deliberate personal attack on @DaisyJane or her children. I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt ... it may just as well be possible that he has a 'learning disability' when it comes to social 'norms'. I have no way of knowing that 'for sure' it his 'intent to offend'. There are other posters in this forum that I find blatantly offensive under the guise of 'their own sense of license to be rude and intolerant' who are not 'banned'. It seems to me that Jae is singled out for disciplinary action for his 'misconduct' and then everyone in turn gives license to each other to 'provoke him to further 'perceived offense' when he further defends his first 'position'. Or it could be that Jae is deliberately trying to be offensive ... and if such is the case ... not being offended 'speaking for myself' is better option than retaliation:

Directed at Jae before the 'banning' of Jae:







The 'big' offense:


Directed at Jae after 'the big' offense:













Jae's 'wrong' opinion:

Rita, the place to discuss concerns about moderation is Council News & Business. That keeps threads from being derailed by situations like this. And that's how it is on pretty much every board I am on. Keep board business in its proper place so discussions can go on. Please and thank you.

 

[revjohn]

He hates organized sports and teases his brother about how the Leaf's play baseball.

Ummmmm. Ontario Major Intercounty Baseball anyone?

Home Page | Toronto Maple Leafs IBL

 

[mgagnonlv]

I have parented three boys. Same parenting approach, same schools, same faith based upbringing. ...
My eldest is a classic boys' boy. [...]
My youngest spend the first four years of his life preferring dresses to anything else. His interests would have been classified as more "girl" as a young child. He loved his hot pink princess bike and asked for dolls for Christmas. His preferred books would have been the sort girls borrowed from the library. He studied dance. [...]

While my youngest presented as more "girl-ish" as a young child, what we didn't do was run him to a doctor and suggest, at age four, that he had some sort of gender identity disorder and required intervention. We just simply let him be whoever he wanted to be. ...

First of all, congratulations in raising your children according to who they were. Now I assumed your younger boy never told you seriously that "he was a girl", or "when will I get some feminine attributes"? Some children do, however, and that's, I think, the major difference between a boy who doesn't follow masculine stereotypes and another one who is transgender, or, as some transgender people would describe it, "a woman in a male body".

I am positive that if you had raised your younger child by forcing him to follow stereotypical masculine stereotypes, he would have been very unhappy. But what would have been his reaction (especially in 2019)?
– Would he have been an unhappy male who would have revolted against his family and who would have done arts and theatre anyways?
or
– Would he have defined himself as a transgender woman because he would have come to the conclusion that the only way to be who he is would be to officially present himself as a woman?

In fact, each time I head of "a woman in a male body", I always wonder what part is really innate in the person's brain and what part is due to society (more specifically their immediate community) not accepting that a man could be interested in wearing skirts and doing theatre, or that a woman could be a talented car mechanic.

 

[DaisyJane]

Those are excellent questions.

Our youngest did, once or twice when he was very young, note that he might enjoy being a girl. We simply reminded him that as a boy he could do all the things girls could do....there wasn't girl "stuff" or boy "stuff". There were simply things one enjoyed doing.

I do think there have been moments that he has been teased for being a non-traditional boy, but for the most part he moves with a pretty cool crowd, and he is very socially aware. And for that I am grateful because it is self-protective. For example, when he was in JK he talked to me about the fact that I shouldn't share that he liked "girl things" with others because they might not understand. He was four. These days he hangs out with a bunch of creative types and gender fluid behaviour seems well accepted.

And for those who know me in RL, I would ask for the privacy of my son that you keep this conversation here on WC.

 

[mgagnonlv]

Thanks for your reply. I was actually asking these questions in a more "theoretical" way, as a way to complete the reflection on the subject. I would love to hear replies by either transgender or "gender non-conforming" people.

 

[Pinga]

@RitaTG - not sure if you saw the questions above, or have time to provide any input to the conversations.