For Mom: Water into Wine (John 2: 1-11)

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@Mystic
As the host of this thread, may I suggest you desist from telling others they are wrong (as with @BetteTheRed) or making absurd assumptions (as above)?

Disagreement is fine.
 
I did not say Mary had less status than the slave. Why would the servants obey Mary but not Jesus if she was just a guest?
 
The wine miracle has one meaning for Greeks who hear this story and another for Jews. This post focuses on the meaning for Greeks.
John repeatedly makes it clear that Jesus' "hour" comes at His crucifixion and resurrection. The introductory time reference "on the 3rd day" (2:1) is probably literally true. But that doesn't explain why this trivia is mentioned. It is probably symbolic because the same chapter then includes 2 references to Jesus' resurrection "in 3 days (2:19-30)." But when does this "hour" actually begin?

Jesus answers this in His reaction to the request of "some Greeks" to see Him (12:20):
"The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified (12:23)."
Here John picks up on the theme that the changing of the water into wine is a "sign" that "revealed His glory (2:11)."
For Greek hearers, John 2:1-11 would evoke associations with the myth of Dionysos, the god who allegedly provided a constant succession of banquets and festivals. In one tradition, Dionysos is said to have been born at Scythopolis, a few miles southeast of Cana.
Analogous to the jars at Cana, 3 empty jars devoted to Dionysos at Elis were placed in a sealed room each year and on the following morning were allegedly always filled with wine. In Euripedes' play The Bacchae, Dionysos' touch causes both water and wine to bubble up from the earth.
(Here I am indebted to Craig Koester's book, "Symbolism in the Fourth Gospel.")
 
@Mystic
I noticed the reference to the third day and wondered about it. You make a good point about such a detail being literally true and also included for a symbolic reason.

With a little push from Mary, Jesus moves into a new way of being in this story.
 
GordW said:
I actually preached on this text a few weeks back (in November actually). Here are my Early Thoughts from that week:
gordsponderings.blogspot.com

Looking Ahead to November 13, 2022 -- 23rd Sunday After Pentecost

This week's Scripture Reading is John 2:2-11 The Sermon title is Mom Knows Best . Source Early Thoughts: Sometimes we need someone to give ...
gordsponderings.blogspot.com gordsponderings.blogspot.com

There are a number of possible questions one could ask about this passage. We could wonder why Mary even knows they are out of wine. Whose wedding is this? Why is she so worried about them losing face? Is she part of the family?

And often the text is preached as a way to talk about great abundance when everyone assumes great scarcity.

But this time when I preached it I was struck by the fact that Mary pushes Jesus to act. It occurs to me that much of life is like that, we act because somebocy pushes/encourages/harasses us to do so.
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It's a wonderful mom story, isn't it?
 
Mystic said:
An absurd assumption unwarranted by the text.
First, Mary's role suggests that the marriage involves either her extended family or Nathanael, Jesus' only disciple from Cana (21:2), who has just been recruited in the prior section (1:45-52) and would respect the Messiah's mother.
Second, where did you get the idea that an honored female guest would have a lower status than a slave?

Note the absence of Joseph who is probably already dead and figures in no story of Jesus' adult ministry. At His crucifixion Jesus need to entrust His mother's care to the Beloved Disciple precisely because Joseph is no longer alive to care for his wife.
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Joseph was the dream maker earlier ... thus regardless of the pious ... anything can happen in the world of Goode as it goes ...

Some stoics are fixated on such edifices ... nd then they suffer fallacy ... low goes ... dark and mystical science when blind tuit! This may be a closed circle ...
 
jimkenney12 said:
I did not say Mary had less status than the slave. Why would the servants obey Mary but not Jesus if she was just a guest?
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Pious assumptions ... then there was the assumption of light as Krist was put down ... and all become dark and mystery! Happens during emotional busts ...
 
Sermon Title: Jesus' Response to Church Resistance to Needed Innovation

I. The Changing of Water into Wine as Prophetic Fulfillment
(1) Just prior to the changing of water into wine, Philip announces to Nathanael, significantly from Cana, "We have found Him about whom Moses in the Law and the Prophets wrote... (John 1:45)." What texts does John have in mind? I will quote one messianic text from the Law (Genesis 49:10-12) and another from the Prophets (Amos 9:11, 13) because their symbolic allusions to overflowing wine connect them with the ensuing Cana miracle.
(2) "The scepter shall not depart from His hands, nor the ruler's staff from beneath His feet until tribute comes to Him, and the obedience of the people is His ...He washes His garments in wine and His robe in the blood of grapes. His eyes shall be read with wine (Genesis 49:10-12)."
Notice the motif of red-eyed intoxication also implicitly found in John 2:1-11.
(3)"On that day will raise of the Booth of David that has fallen... The mountains will drip sweet wine and all the hills shall flow with it (Amos 9:11, 13)."

II. Jesus confronts the attitude, "But we've never done it that way before.
(1) Jesus' imagery of new wedding wine needs to be understood in terms of His self-understanding as the bridegroom who offers new wine in Mark 2:19- 22.
(2) The wedding steward complains that nobody saves the best wine for last, when the guests are already half-smashed (John 2:9-10).
He expects the bridegroom (a symbol for Jesus) to agree that such innovations should be rejected.
(3) He doesn't know that the new wine comes from Jesus (John 2:9).
Do you consider the possibility that the expressed need for innovation in your church is inspired by Christ's Spirit?
(4) Jesus confronts rigid resistance to His new wine" (His new way of being) with the image of old rigid wineskins:
"No one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise, the wine will burst the skins and the wine is lost, and so are the skins; but one puts new wine into new wineskins (Mark 2:22)."
(5) If the church is too rigid and inflexible to accommodate the experience of Jesus' new way of being, they will blow their chance for spiritual growth and will become spiritually dead. Their skins are lost with the new wine.

III. Jesus' new wine (new way of being) can have the effect of spiritual intoxication from the Holy Spirit.
(1) Jesus waits to change the water into new wine until the guests have been drinking a long time.
His new wine therefore enhances their intoxication!
(2) On the Day of Pentecost, cynics ironically speak the truth when they complain, "They are filled with NEW WINE (Acts 2:13)."
(3) Paul contrasts being drunk with wine with being intoxicated with the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 5:18).
(4) Jesus said: ...You have become drunk from the bubbling spring which I have measured out (Gospel of Thomas 13)."

"
 
Some flow of thought is over salted ... excess is toxic ... the problem with hoo M'Ns ... poison by fate ...

Remove a slab of fish ere and soak it bi ... preservation! Auld salts ... you can draw from the jug, or containment ... compartmentalise?
 
After the wedding, Jesus goes with his mother, brothers and disciples to Capernaum where they spend a few days. Maybe a little bit of rest and relaxation was needed after the big celebration and the first public miracle.

I have been recalling the first few days after my own wedding and other important ones in the family.

But Passover is coming and Jesus heads to Jerusalem seemingly on his own. John places the incident of Jesus cleansing the temple here.

Jesus predicts his own resurrection and continues to perform miraculous signs.

Here we are at the end of chapter two and John has laid a lot of groundwork. He has established the divine nature of Jesus and has given us several glimpses of the human one.

We have seen Jesus in the company of friends and family. Jesus joining in a celebration. Jesus somewhat reluctant to perform his first miracle but continuing to do miraculous things. Finally we might be wondering if he could be a bit of a hothead after the temple scene.
 
paradox3 said:
Finally we might be wondering if he could be a bit of a hothead after the temple scene.
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I have always found the cleansing, whether this version or the later version in the Synoptics, to be one of the most human moments. Jesus blows up, something most of us have probably done at some point. But that's for another BPoTW, I imagine.
 
Mendalla said:
I have always found the cleansing, whether this version or the later version in the Synoptics, to be one of the most human moments. Jesus blows up, something most of us have probably done at some point. But that's for another BPoTW, I imagine.
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Or discussion could be continued on the, "Is This the Jesus You Know?" thread. It sort of fizzled out but maybe it can be revived with a lighter version of Jesus temper. Lol
 
Can a good salesman be compared to a animal or some snake oil ... metaphorically? It is a slippery temporalism ... really!

People are funny as greatly divined ... separated? Demi gigue!
 
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