experiencing someone else's perspectacles

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I see it as about being about male control, not female empowerment, no matter how it's rebranded, it still comes back to that.

 

[Jaebius]

When you rent something (to continue the metaphor) you don't own it.

I think any kind of work you do affects you in one way or another.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I rent my apartment. The landlord surrenders certain ownership rights with the exchange of money for time rented here, and it may be his property, but it is now my personal space to do as I please in. I can't wreck the place, but he can't boot me out for any reason he wants to either. And he can't decide to just move in and take over, anytime, as if he owns the place, pardon the pun - he has to ask my permission to come in, not I his. I have more rights than him in that regard, for this to be considered my home, as long as my rent is paid.

 

[Waterfall]

Inanna, So now the "world" wants me to agree wholeheartedly that women and men have the right to exploit their own bodies. You want me to see the other side by putting on a different "perspecticles".
If only I would just lose the attitude that sharing our bodies is sacred, personal, and a shared gift? I am supposed to allow myself to think that legalizing the sex trade will end all mistreatment of sex trade workers and it will become a well respected institution with less chance of abuse. Well it worked for Wall Street, why not prostitution right?

 

[Mendalla]

Inanna, So now the "world" wants me to agree wholeheartedly that women and men have the right to exploit their own bodies. You want me to see the other side by putting on a different "perspecticles".
If only I would just lose the attitude that sharing our bodies is sacred, personal, and a shared gift? I am supposed to allow myself to think that legalizing the sex trade will end all mistreatment of sex trade workers and it will become a well respected institution with less chance of abuse. Well it worked for Wall Street, why not prostitution right?

No, we don't want you to agree. You are entitled to your opinion. What we (or I at least) want if for you to realize that criminalization isn't fixing the problem and won't. It just forces the trade underground and out of society's control, putting the workers more at risk, not less. A decriminalized, regulated sex trade would actually offer more opportunities to protect the workers and help them get out of the trade, not less.

An end to the sex trade isn't going to happen any more than an end to the drug trade, but greater control over it can help reduce and mitigate the harm done. Regulation, rather than criminalization, gives us that control.

(PS. I'm just talking about the basic transaction of money for sex and the workers and customers who engage in those transactions. Pimps and other human traffickers would remain illegal but under human trafficking and slavery laws.)

 

[Waterfall]

No, we don't want you to agree. You are entitled to your opinion. What we (or I at least) want if for you to realize that criminalization isn't fixing the problem and won't. It just forces the trade underground and out of society's control, putting the workers more at risk, not less. A decriminalized, regulated sex trade would actually offer more opportunities to protect the workers and help them get out of the trade, not less.

An end to the sex trade isn't going to happen any more than an end to the drug trade, but greater control over it can help reduce and mitigate the harm done. Regulation, rather than criminalization, gives us that control.

(PS. I'm just talking about the basic transaction of money for sex and the workers and customers who engage in those transactions. Pimps and other human traffickers would remain illegal but under human trafficking and slavery laws.)

I certainly understand the seductive argument on the other side. Almost convincing IMO, except for the fact that it doesn't seem that legitimizing all activities with a different route of where the transference of money occurs makes a "business" more acceptable or less likely to be exploitative. Much the same as legalizing casinos, a whole other world emerges despite the best laid plans.

 

[BetteTheRed]

We all trade some aspect of ourselves for money in order to live. It seems somewhat arbitrary to decide that brains and hands are shareable, other body parts are not. Sexual activity is only sacred if you assign it that meaning; others don't have to share in that opinion.

 

[Waterfall]

We all trade some aspect of ourselves for money in order to live. It seems somewhat arbitrary to decide that brains and hands are shareable, other body parts are not. Sexual activity is only sacred if you assign it that meaning; others don't have to share in that opinion.

I agree, absolutely, don't have to share my opinion.

 

[Mendalla]

I certainly understand the seductive argument on the other side. Almost convincing IMO, except for the fact that it doesn't seem that legitimizing all activities with a different route of where the transference of money occurs makes a "business" more acceptable or less likely to be exploitative. Much the same as legalizing casinos, a whole other world emerges despite the best laid plans.

That "whole other world" is there even if you make gambling or prostitution or whatever illegal; it is just invisible so society can ignore it and pretend it isn't there. By making it legal, you bring it out of the shadows and can do something about it and, more importantly, force society to respond to it instead of pretending it's been dealt with when it has not.

 

[Waterfall]

That "whole other world" is there even if you make gambling or prostitution or whatever illegal; it is just invisible so society can ignore it and pretend it isn't there. By making it legal, you bring it out of the shadows and can do something about it and, more importantly, force society to respond to it instead of pretending it's been dealt with when it has not.

But don't we still ignore the downfalls of legalized gambling. eg. organized crime, homelessness, families destroyed, governments depending on cash cows rather than supporting entrepreneurship, etc...

 

[Delightful Life]

Inanna, So now the "world" wants me to agree wholeheartedly that women and men have the right to exploit their own bodies. You want me to see the other side by putting on a different "perspecticles".
If only I would just lose the attitude that sharing our bodies is sacred, personal, and a shared gift? I am supposed to allow myself to think that legalizing the sex trade will end all mistreatment of sex trade workers and it will become a well respected institution with less chance of abuse. Well it worked for Wall Street, why not prostitution right?

Seeing things from another perspectacle/BS/worldview/reality tunnel/semantic gloss will do you no harm, contrary to how you might feel at the time

Trying on another perspectacle/BS/worldview/reality tunnel/semantic gloss will do you no harm -- in fact, you might experience something that you might not have experienced otherwise -- and you'll always be able to switch back to your 'default' BS if what you find you don't like* -- that's what I've been trying to encourage in my time here on WC ('sharing in the common human experience')

That's all :3

* like how Wall Street can be a net good, or how prostitution can be a sacred, personal, and shared gift, or even how Conservativism is a good...

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

We have had this argument, but many believe as I do, that the best way is to decriminilize it for the women, without legitimizing it for the customers.

I believe we need to not inch closer to making it a good or service on the free market like any other. I still hold this opinion after years, irregardless of recent personal events although that was creating extra anxiousness...that this industry just gives sexism and selfish men a place to thrive and play without having to count the cost that it has on women in society overall, in less overt, but present, ways.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Making something legal for purchase is not the only way to bring it out of the shadow...and I would argue that it doesn't do that. It just creates a sicker society whose sickness is ignored and hidden in a different kind of shadow...hidden in plain sight. But teaching that women are fully complex humans not one dimensional sex objects vs. pure as the driven snow, or whatever else the mens' whim is, and not commodities for use by men - re-examining social attitudes affecting women in general, instead of repackaging old problems - would not make for sexy TV or catchy attention grabbing opinion columns/ articles.

 

[Waterfall]

Seeing things from another perspectacle/BS/worldview/reality tunnel/semantic gloss will do you no harm, contrary to how you might feel at the time

Trying on another perspectacle/BS/worldview/reality tunnel/semantic gloss will do you no harm -- in fact, you might experience something that you might not have experienced otherwise -- and you'll always be able to switch back to your 'default' BS if what you find you don't like* -- that's what I've been trying to encourage in my time here on WC ('sharing in the common human experience')

That's all :3

* like how Wall Street can be a net good, or how prostitution can be a sacred, personal, and shared gift, or even how Conservativism is a good...

I realize what you're doing. I'm sure most thinking people will weigh the pros and cons as they formulate their opinion, and yes it's usually their opinion, sometimes agreed upon by a majority sometimes not. (which doesn't make it right or wrong necessarily) So yes wall street can be a net good for some (albeit a very small minority), prostitution can become sacred(if sacred becomes pagan which can have many meanings, redefined to suit a purpose), personal and a shared gift (if one chooses to define a gift as something you have to pay for).
In the end, so far I haven't heard a convincing argument to change my mind, but I am listening for one.

Prostitution remains legal in Canada and what parts of the law are legal and illegal seem murky and contradictory sometimes

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I would argue that and end to the sex trade could happen, in time, with changing attitudes, just like other social changes. The sex trade is human constructed, it's not an inaliable human quality or human right.

 

[Carolla]

....

Trying on another perspectacle/BS/worldview/reality tunnel/semantic gloss will do you no harm -- in fact, you might experience something that you might not have experienced otherwise -- and you'll always be able to switch back to your 'default' BS if what you find you don't like* -- that's what I've been trying to encourage in my time here on WC ('sharing in the common human experience')

That's all :3

Thanks for this Innna. It's an interesting thing, as Bette has also commented, to see if I can release my own biases & view an unfamiliar situation from a different point of view. So to me, this thread is about that ... the process, not the content of the topic of sex work.

I was curious about the author of the article you posted; so pursued that a bit - and read another of his blogs asking 'why do we hate porn stars so much' - he's a porn star - a long time ambition for him. I found it to be really insightful, and gave me many pauses to ponder about that life, and reflect on my own biases.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Biases are not always a bad thing.

 

[Waterfall]

Pro

Thanks for this Innna. It's an interesting thing, as Bette has also commented, to see if I can release my own biases & view an unfamiliar situation from a different point of view. So to me, this thread is about that ... the process, not the content of the topic of sex work.

I was curious about the author of the article you posted; so pursued that a bit - and read another of his blogs asking 'why do we hate porn stars so much' - he's a porn star - a long time ambition for him. I found it to be really insightful, and gave me many pauses to ponder about that life, and reflect on my own biases.

Can you post that Carolla?

 

[Luce NDs]

Can one really enter into the experiences of another ... without their experiences? Not likely if one suffers from opinionated conditioning to close off from the myriad experiences encountered by god ...

Has to be with God being eternal! That mental storage is a vast thing ... like an infinite mind! Isn't that just way out there ?

No wonder people fear it ... if they don't like knowledge and wisdom larger than the mortal perspective. Thus god reversed things in recessionary pride ... sublime humility that is under our vision!

 

[Carolla]

Biases are not always a bad thing.

That's true. I'm not saying they are or are not ... IMO it's a good thing to pause sometimes to reflect of what one's biases or point of view might be, and to consider how it may be influencing life & actions.