Expansion of MAID delayed until after next election

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

The right-wing think tank that wants the CBC defunded and trans youth unable to receive gender-affirming care? Those guys are your source?

MAiD can not be discussed at WC2. It is never an actual discussion. It sucks, but that's just how it is.

Is it right wing? I thought that was Fraser institute. None of those I’ve encountered who are dedicated to revising and stopping MAiD expansion, including Ramona Callelo afaik who co-authored the above report, want CBC defunded or support ending gender affirming care.

Mistakes will happen. I regret that. I was hasty. All I can think is that people are desperate to get information out anywhere that will publish it, unfortunately. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, approach. I disagree with strategy (that’s how the religious right got into it) so I would like that post removed. I will find a better source.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Do you trust the MacDonald Laurier institute? This is recent. It covers all the MAiD bases.

Bridging the Gaps - Legislative and practice problems in Canada’s MAiD regime: Ramona Coelho and David Shannon | Macdonald-Laurier Institute

An emphasis on “choice” and “access” ignores the reality that desperation driven by systemic neglect can lead some to pursue assisted suicide under coercive conditions.

macdonaldlaurier.ca

MY BAD. REMOVE THIS POST. Please remove it because MLI doesn’t represent what I’m about so leaving it there would be disingenuous. I thought MLI was something else.

 

[chansen]

MY BAD. REMOVE THIS POST. Please remove it because MLI doesn’t represent what I’m about so leaving it there would be disingenuous.

That MLI link represents perfectly what you're about. You will promote anything that you can find that agrees with you and throw it at the wall to see what sticks. It is 100% what you've always done.

Because it is what you do, I don't think it should be removed. I really don't. I think it's better that you came forward and admitted that you never really did your homework before spamming that at us, and that these people who agree with you on the surface are not the sort of people you want to be associated with.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

That MLI link represents perfectly what you're about. You will promote anything that you can find that agrees with you and throw it at the wall to see what sticks. It is 100% what you've always done.

Because it is what you do, I don't think it should be removed. I really don't. I think it's better that you came forward and admitted that you never really did your homework before spamming that at us, and that these people who agree with you on the surface are not the sort of people you want to be associated with.

bulls**t. That’s what you said years ago but we know most of what I warned has happened. You’re just being a dick.

It should be removed unless people would rather support you jumping in and being a dick, over something that’s a serious public policy matter. One that I don’t want to misrepresent but because people just passively wait for me to post proof of what is out there I get to be the WC poster kid for opposition to maid policy and if I f*** up in the slightest you’re just waiting in the wings to be a dick for no other reason than to be a dick - and you know it.

If the post doesn’t get removed, I’m gone. I wasn’t posting to be a dick, chansen is. I was posting because I’m concerned and scared for the future and especially for those who have no voice. So remove mine by being a dick. That’ll help. And as the warnings become apparent, like the rest of them, remember what I said and eat it. And I hope you feel bad. But you won’t because who cares about the lives of a bunch of amateur disabled people speaking out about a behemoth law that endangers many more - and no one cares as long as people can just jump in and be dicks and end the discussion. Like there’s nothing else we’d rather be doing than this. Like it doesn’t take a toll on us. We’re doing it because it needs to be done. And no one else is. The last 10 years are evidence of it getting worse. So you can be aware and care, or you can be a dick. Your choice. Pointing out my mistakes is fine but you can do it without being a dick. You know I’ve been right about most of this.

I’m a disabled woman at risk of homelessness and if I get cancer I’m f***ed. And those camped out on the street are f***ed. Enjoy your evening.

And that leaves what, like 5 regular posters or so?

 

[Northwind]

The thing is, if a person is offered a MAID application they can say no. Of course that presumes they can speak for themselves. It also highlights the need for people to have supports and advocates.

MAID of course has issues. The discussion needs to be based on reality not just speculation or misinformation.

 

[Northwind]

One last thing because apparently I can't help myself.

Yes, there are serious ethical issues with MAID. I don't dispute that.

K, you said there are no checks and balances. That's wrong. There are.

You say people are being forced to use MAID. They are not. At least as not as frequently as you would suggest.

Deciding you're done with cancer treatment is a legitimate decision. It usually comes after a long time getting treatment. I don't think anyone ever made that decision lightly. To deny MAID because someone is done is wrong. Anyone who has been given cancer drugs probably has some understanding. They are unlike any other drug, and have huge side effects. Sometimes the side effects make it no longer worth it.

Having an intellectual discussion about something as serious as cancer treatments and the decisions involved is, well, heartless and insensitive.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I’m tired of being the defacto WC2 “reporter” on MAiD anyway. People can choose to look into it themselves.

 

[Northwind]

I’m tired of being the defacto WC2 “reporter” on MAiD anyway. People can choose to look into it themselves.

It would be so much better if you actually engaged in discussion rather than bludgeoning us with information that in some cases is not accurate. You'd be surprised to learn that more of us agree with much of what you say than disagree.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

One last thing because apparently I can't help myself.

Yes, there are serious ethical issues with MAID. I don't dispute that.

K, you said there are no checks and balances. That's wrong. There are.

You say people are being forced to use MAID. They are not. At least as not as frequently as you would suggest.

Deciding you're done with cancer treatment is a legitimate decision. It usually comes after a long time getting treatment. I don't think anyone ever made that decision lightly. To deny MAID because someone is done is wrong. Anyone who has been given cancer drugs probably has some understanding. They are unlike any other drug, and have huge side effects. Sometimes the side effects make it no longer worth it.

Having an intellectual discussion about something as serious as cancer treatments and the decisions involved is, well, heartless and insensitive.

There are inadequate checks and balances open for exploiting. You are lucky they weren’t in your case - and indeed not in ‘most’ cases but they are being exploited - and that really matters - but you don’t see it that way from where you sit, and I don’t have any more energy for this.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

It would be so much better if you actually engaged in discussion rather than bludgeoning us with information that in some cases is not accurate. You'd be surprised to learn that more of us agree with much of what you say than disagree.

I can’t listen to it anymore. You and your friends got thorough treatment so you don’t believe there’s any corruption. It’s classic. You won’t consider that your thorough treatment has come at the expense of those with less of a voice. We could be shouting from the rooftops but until the post-mortem reports (literally, and figuratively on a policy scale) come out you won’t hear it and that’s been my uphill battle here the whole time. It feels like a waste of my time.

 

[Northwind]

Did I say there wasn't corruption? Did I say the system was perfect? No on both accounts. I'm damned lucky to have gotten treatment. People of all classes have access to treatment, even if it's hard to get started for different reasons.

And don't you dare say that I'm a privileged Boomer and all that. Again, if you knew about cancer treatment you'd know people from different walks of life get treatment. Yes, there are hurdles that shouldn't be there.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Yeah I’m tired of the excuse being about my failure to communicate properly. Obviously my passionate posts are for a reason - because it is alarming - and if you cared you would see it regardless and maybe study it more yourselves instead of scapegoating me.

 

[Northwind]

Oh FFS. We agree more than disagree. I do not like being essentially told that my lived experience is not as important as books, articles and theorists.

Why am I even still here responding.

 

[BetteTheRed]

Kimmio, you are being dismissive of another's experience.

The availability of Track 1 MAiD is an essential tool in the treatment of late stage terminal illnesses. They are as entitled as you to their challenges being recognized and addressed.

Everyone on this thread even Rita, whose rationale for agreement you don't like, disapproves of Track 2. You are tilting at windmills, dear. You have convinced all that Track 2 is wrong. We are not legislators. You need to speak to your own MP.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

And don't you dare say that I'm a privileged Boomer and all that. Again, if you knew about cancer treatment you'd know people from different walks of life get treatment. Yes, there are hurdles that shouldn't be there.

Did I tell you about the low income senior woman in the hospital bed next to me who had skin cancer and back pain who was put into the recovery ward after skin cancer surgery who was told by her doctor about DNR which she mistook for MAiD and the doctor cheerfully said “No but we can look into that too!” I said “Excuse me!” She poked her head around the curtain and I told her I objected to the discussion. I was recovering from surgery, had like 2 visitors in three weeks - I like to think people care about me but it was pretty isolating and bleak - and was miserable fighting like stink on my own initiative that I’m glad I had, to get out of there asap because it was a terrifying place. I was transferred there from another hospital. I didn’t see that doctor in our room again. But my hospital roommate was usually out of the room when I came back from physio. There were people languishing there with nowhere to go - a doctor (or nurse?) told me it had become an extended care facility essentially - and I suspect many end up getting MAiD. World war 2 vibes. It disturbed me. The situation is far more dire than you think.

What would it look like to go back 10 years and start over with policy so it cannot be exploited to nazi levels ever? Really that horrible?

 

[chansen]

bulls**t. That’s what you said years ago but we know most of what I warned has happened. You’re just being a dick.

It should be removed unless people would rather support you jumping in and being a dick, over something that’s a serious public policy matter. One that I don’t want to misrepresent but because people just passively wait for me to post proof of what is out there I get to be the WC poster kid for opposition to maid policy and if I f*** up in the slightest you’re just waiting in the wings to be a dick for no other reason than to be a dick - and you know it.

You aren't listening to anyone. You have allies here, even if we don't agree 100%. But that's all you'll accept. If perfect is the enemy of good, then you're efforts will help prevent good policy by only accepting what you think is perfect policy.

And that was a lot of "dick" comments. Even for me.

If the post doesn’t get removed, I’m gone. I wasn’t posting to be a dick, chansen is. I was posting because I’m concerned and scared for the future and especially for those who have no voice. So remove mine by being a dick. That’ll help. And as the warnings become apparent, like the rest of them, remember what I said and eat it. And I hope you feel bad. But you won’t because who cares about the lives of a bunch of amateur disabled people speaking out about a behemoth law that endangers many more - and no one cares as long as people can just jump in and be dicks and end the discussion. Like there’s nothing else we’d rather be doing than this. Like it doesn’t take a toll on us. We’re doing it because it needs to be done. And no one else is. The last 10 years are evidence of it getting worse. So you can be aware and care, or you can be a dick. Your choice. Pointing out my mistakes is fine but you can do it without being a dick. You know I’ve been right about most of this.

I'm just saying that it's better we own up to our mistakes and point out that these people are up to no good, even if we accidentally agree with them at times. I don't agree with taking content down in general. Here is an example of why.

And yes your style of arguing this is to compile random arguments from Google and appeal to emotions. There is no consideration, just a firehouse of arguments of random quality, arranged in no particular order. It always backfires on you and every time you fail to convince us you are amazed all over again.

I’m a disabled woman at risk of homelessness and if I get cancer I’m f***ed. And those camped out on the street are f***ed. Enjoy your evening.

And that leaves what, like 5 regular posters or so?

I have empathy for you and what you've experienced, though I don't understand. I can't. You don't understand my experience with disability. You don't understand Northwind's treatments. I don't want you to understand either of our paths, because that means you'd have to experience them. But you discount them in the same breath that you complain we're discounting you.

We don't agree 100% with you. That's not the end of the world. We could all come to a place that makes MAiD decisions a little more ethical and appropriate, but your refusal to entertain anything but 100% capitulation will contribute to people tuning you out and then your voice will be lost.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

You aren't listening to anyone. You have allies here, even if we don't agree 100%. But that's all you'll accept. If perfect is the enemy of good, then you're efforts will help prevent good policy by only accepting what you think is perfect policy.

And that was a lot of "dick" comments. Even for me.


I'm just saying that it's better we own up to our mistakes and point out that these people are up to no good, even if we accidentally agree with them at times. I don't agree with taking content down in general. Here is an example of why.

And yes your style of arguing this is to compile random arguments from Google and appeal to emotions. There is no consideration, just a firehouse of arguments of random quality, arranged in no particular order. It always backfires on you and every time you fail to convince us you are amazed all over again.


I have empathy for you and what you've experienced, though I don't understand. I can't. You don't understand my experience with disability. You don't understand Northwind's treatments. I don't want you to understand either of our paths, because that means you'd have to experience them. But you discount them in the same breath that you complain we're discounting you.

We don't agree 100% with you. That's not the end of the world. We could all come to a place that makes MAiD decisions a little more ethical and appropriate, but your refusal to entertain anything but 100% capitulation will contribute to people tuning you out and then your voice will be lost.

What you’re not seeing is the geopolitical aspect of this that has been in the background the whole time and now makes MAiD extremely dangerous policy to have the way it is. Loopholes, even in track 1 need to be closed and sealed off. We are not in peacetime. We weren’t really then and we especially aren’t now. That makes a difference.

You could understand. I think. Just imagine it and try to muster up some feelings.

I understand Northwind but because she’s in the majority doesn’t mean there’s not a minority being exploited and that isn’t a problem.

 

[Northwind]

I’m a disabled woman at risk of homelessness and if I get cancer I’m f***ed. And those camped out on the street are f***ed. Enjoy your evening.

You would not be f***ed if you got cancer unless you rolled over and gave up. You are articulate and presumably have an understanding of the medical system. Playing the victim doesn't suit you.

I do realize you are at risk of homelessness that truly sucks.

I understand Northwind but because she’s in the majority doesn’t mean there’s not a minority being exploited and that isn’t a problem.

There you go saying I'm a privileged Boomer. Just stop.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

There are policies that, in their current form, don’t make sense outside of peacetime. And considering history of euthanasia annd how it’s been used in wartime - and where we’re headed, it would be extremely callous and ignorant not to review both MAiD tracks - but right now track 2 is the priority. And that’s all I’m going to say.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

You would not be f***ed if you got cancer unless you rolled over and gave up. You are articulate and presumably have an understanding of the medical system. Playing the victim doesn't suit you.

I do realize you are at risk of homelessness that truly sucks.



There you go saying I'm a privileged Boomer. Just stop.

I didn’t say that anywhere! You’re getting mad about things I didn’t say so why did you read that, that way?

I’m a white disabled woman who currently has a home for awhile but I will have to move again in the not distant future. I acknowledge it has privileges over being a street entrenched Indigenous person of colour. I can acknowledge that. It’s statistically and experientially true.I didn’t say anything about you being a boomer. But people less privileged than both of us - and probably me more so - are in more danger in the times we’re in, from all sorts of injustices - correct?