Yet so much determination contained in certainty! Leaves me in chaos over being eliminated ...
Exegesis - Help!
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Yet so much determination contained in certainty! Leaves me in chaos over being eliminated ...
And even calendar was open to change in rules of how time was recorded ... no star dates set!
The dimension of redaction of word ... as rendered down from complexity to ...
No wonder there always seems amour tuit ...
To be fair, some posters here recognize that my previous several returns to this site after a prolonged absence have encountered immediate insults which I chose not to ignore. But Steve's exegetical ineptness bothers me far more than chansen's illiterate screed because his comments gain considerable cache on a site as academically misinformed as this one. The presence of his ilk here prompted my slumming reaction. As far Steve's expected slender of my academic competence, I remind readers that he has not viewed my resume, including my many assigned papers read at several national and international conferences and my workshops and lectures at other universities. Nor does he know about my roles in teaching courses at Harvard at both the undergraduate and graduate level. Still, I feel the need to rub his nose in his ineptness as an exegete, and so, I repost the offending post, together with a preliminary dismissive analogy as a prelude to my hopefully permanent goodbye.
Consider the line from John Dryden's famous poem: "None but the brave deserve the fair." No one disputes the implication that only the brave deserve the adoration of beautiful women. Set aside for the moment that this implication is sexist nonsense. To use Steve's demented logic, it would be appropriate to understand this line in terms of other loftier usages in which "fair" denotes "just," so that the text warrants an exposition on how only the brave serve justice. It is equally absurd to sermonize on Proverbs 13:24: "Spare the rod and spoil (hate) the child" by invoking the comforting pastoral image of the shepherd's rod or staff in Psalm 23. The use of the "rod" image in Proverbs is consistently punitive and is closely allied with the celebration of corporal punishment and discipline there. One may object to Proverbs' perspective on discipline, but to apply 13:24 to a message of comfort and gentle guidance amounts to eisegetically butchering the text. In that light, I repost my critique of the post in question with the certainty that his incompetence as an exegete is self-evident.
--------
revsdd: "One needs to study the text before deciding on how to apply it. That's called exegesis. A simple example: Proverbs 13:24.
"Those who spare the rod hate their children; but those who love them are diligent to discipline them."
This is the famous verse usually incorrectly stated as "spare the rod and spoil the child." It is commonly used to justify the corporal punishment of children, so it's very easy for a person to do no exegesis of the text, be convinced that corporal punishment is right, search this verse up and then apply it by using corporal punishment of their children. That's applying a verse without exegesis, but only with eisegesis."
I initially decided to let this post go unchallenged because of the common modern abuse of this text and because the lack of board moderation here prevents me from constructive engagement in threads, but I have decided to respond to you, Steve, because your interpretation has inadvertently misled several posters to misinterpret this text. Ironically, your failure to research authorial intent in the relevant contexts of Proverbs' use of "the rod" makes you guilty of eisegesis here. Here is the first of several text from Proverbs that establish this point:
"The rod and reproof give wisdom, but a mother is disgraced by a neglected child...Discipline your children and they will give you rest...By mere words servants are not disciplined; for though they understand, they will not give heed (29:15, 17, 19)." The point is that words of admonition and comfort can provide understand, but often this understanding often does not lead to obedience. Thus, for Proverbs, when words are not enough, the cleansing punitive rod is needed: "Blows that wound cleanse away evil; beatings make clean the inmost parts (20:30)." Note the contextual reference to "youths" in the preceding verse.
Rev. Steve: "Proper exegesis would have to do a full study of how the image of "the rod" is used in Scripture. For example, contrast this with "your rod and your staff they comfort me." Also, the rod is a tool used by a shepherd to guide the sheep, not to beat them.
Here, at least, you fail to grasp the relationship between language and culture. Baseball fans speak of a great pitcher's "filthy stuff," by which they don't mean that the pitcher cakes the ball with mud and dust, but rather that the ball curves and dances to elude the hitter. Similarly, the context of a biblical focus on the comforting and guiding "rod" always makes clear that a sheep metaphor is envisaged (see Psalm 23).. In the Pentateuch, the rod or staff symbolizes God's wonder-working signs (see especially Exodus 4:17).
Rev. Steve: "How can we justify the image of the rod as both a source of comfort and guidance but also a source of physical punishment?" Also, one would have to deal with the proper meaning of "discipline." Is it synonymous with punishment? Or does disciplining children mean teaching them or guiding them."
In Proverbs parental use of "the rod" means both corporal punishment and discipline: "Do not withhold discipline from your children. If you beat them with the rod, they will not die. If you beat them with the rod, you will save their lives from Sheol (Proverbs (3:13-14)."
Though not synonymous, it clearly includes the connotation of punishment, as both Proverbs and Hebrews make clear:
"My child, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord or lose heart when you are punished by Him. For whom the Lord loves He disciplines and scourges (or "flogs"--Greek: mastigoi) everyone He accepts as a son (Hebrew 12:5-6)." Here Hebrews quotes Psalm 3:11-12 and translates the Hebrew for "reprove" as "scourge." Whether one accepts this translation or not, it clearly expresses NT values and fits well with the Proverbs' teaching on corporal discipline. Even Paul's metaphorical use of "rod" distinguishes it from gentle love: "Am I to come to you with a rod or with love in a spirit of gentleness (1 Corinthians 4:21)."
Great! Now I feel better! I'll check back in a few months to see if any civility has been imposed on board moderation.[/QUOTE]
Consider the line from John Dryden's famous poem: "None but the brave deserve the fair." No one disputes the implication that only the brave deserve the adoration of beautiful women. Set aside for the moment that this implication is sexist nonsense. To use Steve's demented logic, it would be appropriate to understand this line in terms of other loftier usages in which "fair" denotes "just," so that the text warrants an exposition on how only the brave serve justice. It is equally absurd to sermonize on Proverbs 13:24: "Spare the rod and spoil (hate) the child" by invoking the comforting pastoral image of the shepherd's rod or staff in Psalm 23. The use of the "rod" image in Proverbs is consistently punitive and is closely allied with the celebration of corporal punishment and discipline there. One may object to Proverbs' perspective on discipline, but to apply 13:24 to a message of comfort and gentle guidance amounts to eisegetically butchering the text. In that light, I repost my critique of the post in question with the certainty that his incompetence as an exegete is self-evident.
--------
revsdd: "One needs to study the text before deciding on how to apply it. That's called exegesis. A simple example: Proverbs 13:24.
"Those who spare the rod hate their children; but those who love them are diligent to discipline them."
This is the famous verse usually incorrectly stated as "spare the rod and spoil the child." It is commonly used to justify the corporal punishment of children, so it's very easy for a person to do no exegesis of the text, be convinced that corporal punishment is right, search this verse up and then apply it by using corporal punishment of their children. That's applying a verse without exegesis, but only with eisegesis."
I initially decided to let this post go unchallenged because of the common modern abuse of this text and because the lack of board moderation here prevents me from constructive engagement in threads, but I have decided to respond to you, Steve, because your interpretation has inadvertently misled several posters to misinterpret this text. Ironically, your failure to research authorial intent in the relevant contexts of Proverbs' use of "the rod" makes you guilty of eisegesis here. Here is the first of several text from Proverbs that establish this point:
"The rod and reproof give wisdom, but a mother is disgraced by a neglected child...Discipline your children and they will give you rest...By mere words servants are not disciplined; for though they understand, they will not give heed (29:15, 17, 19)." The point is that words of admonition and comfort can provide understand, but often this understanding often does not lead to obedience. Thus, for Proverbs, when words are not enough, the cleansing punitive rod is needed: "Blows that wound cleanse away evil; beatings make clean the inmost parts (20:30)." Note the contextual reference to "youths" in the preceding verse.
Rev. Steve: "Proper exegesis would have to do a full study of how the image of "the rod" is used in Scripture. For example, contrast this with "your rod and your staff they comfort me." Also, the rod is a tool used by a shepherd to guide the sheep, not to beat them.
Here, at least, you fail to grasp the relationship between language and culture. Baseball fans speak of a great pitcher's "filthy stuff," by which they don't mean that the pitcher cakes the ball with mud and dust, but rather that the ball curves and dances to elude the hitter. Similarly, the context of a biblical focus on the comforting and guiding "rod" always makes clear that a sheep metaphor is envisaged (see Psalm 23).. In the Pentateuch, the rod or staff symbolizes God's wonder-working signs (see especially Exodus 4:17).
Rev. Steve: "How can we justify the image of the rod as both a source of comfort and guidance but also a source of physical punishment?" Also, one would have to deal with the proper meaning of "discipline." Is it synonymous with punishment? Or does disciplining children mean teaching them or guiding them."
In Proverbs parental use of "the rod" means both corporal punishment and discipline: "Do not withhold discipline from your children. If you beat them with the rod, they will not die. If you beat them with the rod, you will save their lives from Sheol (Proverbs (3:13-14)."
Though not synonymous, it clearly includes the connotation of punishment, as both Proverbs and Hebrews make clear:
"My child, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord or lose heart when you are punished by Him. For whom the Lord loves He disciplines and scourges (or "flogs"--Greek: mastigoi) everyone He accepts as a son (Hebrew 12:5-6)." Here Hebrews quotes Psalm 3:11-12 and translates the Hebrew for "reprove" as "scourge." Whether one accepts this translation or not, it clearly expresses NT values and fits well with the Proverbs' teaching on corporal discipline. Even Paul's metaphorical use of "rod" distinguishes it from gentle love: "Am I to come to you with a rod or with love in a spirit of gentleness (1 Corinthians 4:21)."
Great! Now I feel better! I'll check back in a few months to see if any civility has been imposed on board moderation.[/QUOTE]
PilgrimsProgress
Well-Known Member
Well, I don't know about everyone else here -but I find it rather sad that someone can allegedly spend a great deal of their life studying and teaching at Harvard and has failed to grasp the commandments to love God, neighbour, - and even enemies.
As one who reacts poorly myself when I feel that others don't treat me with respect, I'm sorry that Steve gets under your skin but accusing Steve of "exegetical ineptness" is both insulting and unkind.
It may not be your intention, but your post comes across as written by an unhappy man.
There is a lot to be happy about in this world - I hope some of it comes your way this Easter.
As one who reacts poorly myself when I feel that others don't treat me with respect, I'm sorry that Steve gets under your skin but accusing Steve of "exegetical ineptness" is both insulting and unkind.
It may not be your intention, but your post comes across as written by an unhappy man.
There is a lot to be happy about in this world - I hope some of it comes your way this Easter.
revsdd
Well-Known Member
Welcome back to the ghetto! How ya been? It's been a long time!
Actually long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away there was a huge debate on this site (or was it the original?) about your academic credentials and all those United Church bigwigs you knew who pleaded with you to come to WC and save us all. I don't remember exactly how I got involved in that but I was kind of designated as the person who'd confirm stuff with you. In response you never were able to say who your United Church friends were, but you did send me information about your academic background (including several academic papers you've written - or co-written if I remember correctly.) None were written while you taught at Harvard, but reflected you teaching at a - well - smaller college. We'll leave it at that. None of them reflected that you were a biblical scholar, either. I promised you that I wouldn't reveal your name (because you like to throw around your insults and your claims of academic excellence hiding behind the anonymity of the internet.) Fair enough. I keep my word. I won't mention your name. But it's interesting that in the year 2018 - when pretty much everything is available to everyone with a computer - when I google your name the results I get (in order) name an actor, a scientist, a guy who runs a driving school, a guy who runs a ceramic art gallery, a real estate agent, a current professor of Communications at a New Jersey university - and it ain't Princeton, an "information science pioneer" who died in 2012, a lawyer, an insurance salesman, a guy who's an expert on volcanoes in Hawaii, a guy who's written an article about blood viscosity. I'm on to Page 4 of the Google results now. No biblical scholars yet. And being not entirely unfamiliar with the academic world even if I do dwell in the ghetto, when I've mentioned your name to folks I know who are biblical scholars in both Canada and the United States, I'm met with a blank stare and a "never heard of him." Interesting. That's all.
An attempt which says far more about you than it does about me.Mystic said:
Post away, bud.Mystic said:
"Hopefully" leaves so many possibilities.Mystic said:
[/QUOTE]
Here is another verse worthy of your consideration Mystic, "Forsooth we doing truth in charity, wax in him by all things, that is Christ the head;" - Ephesians 4:15 (WYC).
revjohn
Well-Known Member
Mystic said:
Permanent good-bye to WC2 or something else?
If it is WC2 there are two ways to go about that. You can simply make the decision for yourself. Nobody is forcing you to be here, just as you choose to return you can choose not to. The other way is to set out to break every code of conduct until you get yourself banned.
If the permanent good-bye is an end of life thing then what do you want for a good send-off? I can't imagine coming here to prolong a feud helps in this event.
If you want to be banned it sets the table quite well.
Humans love conflict and feuds ... amuses the illusive anima called mind ... a different spirit that is said to be out there ... looking over you shoulder as a bigger sibling ... brother spirit to woman female spirit to man ... just to irritate the pool ... cause rings and ripples!
Alas I regress into distant domains ... some think of it as bottomland sol ... imaginative shadowland ... as something unseen?
Life is really odd, peculiar and strange given the ideal of the Golden Rule being buried ... equality to the sects of psyche and wisdom? What a concept ... couldn't be ... right? Must be the environment ... that' Sur rounding up ... looking back at the load being carried ... *giggle* how best to unload some emotions?
Alas I regress into distant domains ... some think of it as bottomland sol ... imaginative shadowland ... as something unseen?
Life is really odd, peculiar and strange given the ideal of the Golden Rule being buried ... equality to the sects of psyche and wisdom? What a concept ... couldn't be ... right? Must be the environment ... that' Sur rounding up ... looking back at the load being carried ... *giggle* how best to unload some emotions?
unsafe
Well-Known Member
Mystics quote from above -------"One needs to study the text before deciding on how to apply it.
unsafe says and posted scripture
I agree with this statement -----But The Holy Spirit should be directing the study not man in my view -----No Man can rightly divide God's word without the direction of the Holy Spirit Period -----
This word rod has many uses and needs to be looked at very carefully when dealing with Proverbs 13:24 or any other scripture dealing with children's behaviours and beating and discipline ------ The Bible is a Spiritual Book not a physical book and all Scripture in this Book called the Bible will have a Spiritual meaning ------we Humans will find a Physical meaning but that is not the real message -----The real message will be Spiritual and will always point to God and His will for us spiritually ---so Proverbs 13:24 is not about physical beatings with a rod -----it is all about training the Child to God's ways to keep them from defiling themselves ------
Proverbs 22:6 (KJV)
6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
----unsafe says and posted scripture -------Here we see below God disciplines His sons and daughters ------When we sin we reap the consequences ---- continual sinning will harden our heart and we become spiritually Dead
Hebrews 12:7-10 (CEB)
7 Bear hardship for the sake of discipline. God is treating you like sons and daughters! What child isn’t disciplined by his or her father? 8 But if you don’t experience discipline, which happens to all children, then you are illegitimate and not real sons and daughters. 9 What’s more, we had human parents who disciplined us, and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live? 10 Our human parents disciplined us for a little while, as it seemed best to them, but God does it for our benefit so that we can share his holiness.
unsafe says and posted same scripture different bibles
God is a God of Love ----there is no anger in God's love -----Where in any scripture does it say a child was beaten with a rod ---there is no such scripture -------the scriptures say this about a child ------
Deuteronomy 1:39 (NLT)
39 I will give the land to your little ones—your innocent children. You were afraid they would be captured, but they will be the ones who occupy it.
(ERV)
39 You thought your little children would be taken by your enemies. But those children, who are still too young to know right from wrong, will go into the land. I will give it to them. Your children will take the land for their own.
unsafe says and posted scripture and commentary
So if the child is innocent in God's eyes until they know right from wrong ------why then would God say beat your child with a rod ------God here is speaking of not physical punishment but Train your Child to God's ways at an early age so that the child doesn't Die spiritually ---
unsafe says ------There is a Rod of God ------this rod symbolises God's word ------
Bible verse about Rod as a Symbol of God's Word
Rod as a Symbol of God's Word (Forerunner Commentary)
Proverbs 13:24 (AMP)
24
He who withholds the rod [of discipline] hates his son,
But he who loves him disciplines and trains him diligently and appropriately [with wisdom and love].
Proverbs 23:13 ►
New International Version
Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish them with the rod, they will not die.
unsafe says -----this is saying ----if you punish them with the Word of God they won't die spiritually
Proverbs 22:15 says this -----
Proverbs 22:15 (NKJV)
15 Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child;
The rod of correction will drive it far from him.
unsafe says
Beating a child with a rod will not change his heart -----God is the only one who can change a heart -------no corporal punishment will do that
The rod here is God's word ------All Glory is God's
unsafe says
So extensive study is needed when you come up against hard scripture ----allowing the Holy Spirit to be the guide not us ---And Mystic or no one else has mentioned that -----
If we can rightly divide God's word we can certainly wrongly divide it as well in my view ------
unsafe says and posted scripture
I agree with this statement -----But The Holy Spirit should be directing the study not man in my view -----No Man can rightly divide God's word without the direction of the Holy Spirit Period -----
This word rod has many uses and needs to be looked at very carefully when dealing with Proverbs 13:24 or any other scripture dealing with children's behaviours and beating and discipline ------ The Bible is a Spiritual Book not a physical book and all Scripture in this Book called the Bible will have a Spiritual meaning ------we Humans will find a Physical meaning but that is not the real message -----The real message will be Spiritual and will always point to God and His will for us spiritually ---so Proverbs 13:24 is not about physical beatings with a rod -----it is all about training the Child to God's ways to keep them from defiling themselves ------
Proverbs 22:6 (KJV)
6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
----unsafe says and posted scripture -------Here we see below God disciplines His sons and daughters ------When we sin we reap the consequences ---- continual sinning will harden our heart and we become spiritually Dead
Hebrews 12:7-10 (CEB)
7 Bear hardship for the sake of discipline. God is treating you like sons and daughters! What child isn’t disciplined by his or her father? 8 But if you don’t experience discipline, which happens to all children, then you are illegitimate and not real sons and daughters. 9 What’s more, we had human parents who disciplined us, and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live? 10 Our human parents disciplined us for a little while, as it seemed best to them, but God does it for our benefit so that we can share his holiness.
unsafe says and posted same scripture different bibles
God is a God of Love ----there is no anger in God's love -----Where in any scripture does it say a child was beaten with a rod ---there is no such scripture -------the scriptures say this about a child ------
Deuteronomy 1:39 (NLT)
39 I will give the land to your little ones—your innocent children. You were afraid they would be captured, but they will be the ones who occupy it.
(ERV)
39 You thought your little children would be taken by your enemies. But those children, who are still too young to know right from wrong, will go into the land. I will give it to them. Your children will take the land for their own.
unsafe says and posted scripture and commentary
So if the child is innocent in God's eyes until they know right from wrong ------why then would God say beat your child with a rod ------God here is speaking of not physical punishment but Train your Child to God's ways at an early age so that the child doesn't Die spiritually ---
unsafe says ------There is a Rod of God ------this rod symbolises God's word ------
Bible verse about Rod as a Symbol of God's Word
Rod as a Symbol of God's Word (Forerunner Commentary)
Proverbs 13:24 (AMP)
24
He who withholds the rod [of discipline] hates his son,
But he who loves him disciplines and trains him diligently and appropriately [with wisdom and love].
Proverbs 23:13 ►
New International Version
Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish them with the rod, they will not die.
unsafe says -----this is saying ----if you punish them with the Word of God they won't die spiritually
Proverbs 22:15 says this -----
Proverbs 22:15 (NKJV)
15 Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child;
The rod of correction will drive it far from him.
unsafe says
Beating a child with a rod will not change his heart -----God is the only one who can change a heart -------no corporal punishment will do that
The rod here is God's word ------All Glory is God's
unsafe says
So extensive study is needed when you come up against hard scripture ----allowing the Holy Spirit to be the guide not us ---And Mystic or no one else has mentioned that -----
If we can rightly divide God's word we can certainly wrongly divide it as well in my view ------
Go by the book ... and thus one doesn't have to think ... pure protocol .. tis the alternate law of nature ... unnatural thoughts?
Ever been in a glade where two deer things battled over passions ... the quiet glade is thus destroyed ... like thunder in the upper 'd Rome ... when words are messed up ... tis called redaction ... ongoing change of mind! Fabrication is like that ... aboriginal ... initiated in the beginning as dark and stormy ... formless?
Here is another verse worthy of your consideration Mystic, "Forsooth we doing truth in charity, wax in him by all things, that is Christ the head;" - Ephesians 4:15 (WYC).[/QUOTE]
Thus wacked ... off on a tangent heg OEs ... tanned gent? One cajoled into getting naked in the rye lighter sects ... glowing demos? That' S'M as Kahn dell in the winds ... kahn't ell ... sacred!
Hope is a great thing for tyrants to suppress ... and then charge admonitions! Speak of schemes. plots, themes and conspiracies ... tis a complex weaving ... a devil to unravel ... to get at the core ...
Working devils are recessive too ... seen only in relief ... then relaxation syndrome is not for the industrious success sorts ... they have an institution of their own ... more modern than the aboriginal light? Pagan Christ! Stand ins ...
Follow this to see how labels and names change ...
Awesome rite ... change to cover for those wishing to learn healing ... alternate doctrine!
Working devils are recessive too ... seen only in relief ... then relaxation syndrome is not for the industrious success sorts ... they have an institution of their own ... more modern than the aboriginal light? Pagan Christ! Stand ins ...
Follow this to see how labels and names change ...
Awesome rite ... change to cover for those wishing to learn healing ... alternate doctrine!
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PilgrimsProgress
Well-Known Member
Back to Mark 1:40-45
I need some help with this question - "What theological issues does the passage raise?"
As I'm just starting out on my theological journey, I'm unsure of how this needs to be answered - so what "theological issues" do you see in this "pericope"? (Thanks for this new word for me , revjohn!)
I need some help with this question - "What theological issues does the passage raise?"
As I'm just starting out on my theological journey, I'm unsure of how this needs to be answered - so what "theological issues" do you see in this "pericope"? (Thanks for this new word for me , revjohn!)
revjohn
Well-Known Member
PilgrimsProgress said:
Theological issues are issues which inform us about God/Jesus/Holy Spirit.
Or, they challenge or previous knowledge/understanding of either.
Jesus indignation/compassion what does either tell us about Jesus or challenge what we already know about Jesus?
The instruction to present himself to the priest. How dies that fit into Jewish Law and what does Jesus giving that instruction mean?
The same for the sacrifices.
What does Jesus mean when he instructs the Leper not to tell anyone about him.
These are theological issues present in the this pericope.
Does blinded faith contribute to the unseen ... and denied empathy?
Could contribute to that primal verse: "In the beginning a dark formless void" ... as God is humble and shy compared to substantial powers of corruption ...
The crap one has to dig through in human historical myths ... generated by superior success ... the secessionist's will do all they can to put you out of sight ... lo' insubstantial sense ... that's the way it is ... in the physical body ... especially overblown ... inflated?
Don't look Alice ...
Could contribute to that primal verse: "In the beginning a dark formless void" ... as God is humble and shy compared to substantial powers of corruption ...
The crap one has to dig through in human historical myths ... generated by superior success ... the secessionist's will do all they can to put you out of sight ... lo' insubstantial sense ... that's the way it is ... in the physical body ... especially overblown ... inflated?
Don't look Alice ...
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crazyheart
Rest In Peace: tomorrow,tomorrow
What Sunday do you preach?
PilgrimsProgress
Well-Known Member
Thanks, revjohn. (again!)
The term "theological issues" seemed rather vague to me - I wanted to zero in on the specifics. I liked the way you helped me focus with questions - it does what the examiner intends - make me read about, think about, and come up with answers.
PilgrimsProgress
Well-Known Member
I'm preaching on this twice - at the college - and then again in the mission church.
It's not until the end of April - but I'm so enthused I've already done my first draft of the sermon. (It may change radically, it all depends on what I learn in the course/reading/ revjohn., revsdd .)
I'll post it here, too......
I find myself loving the whole sermon bit - reading the text, looking up historical references, reading what others have to say online. Marinating it all away in my mind (hopefully guided by the Spirit) and the actual process of writing.