Euthanasia in Canada, Supreme Court Ruled this Morning

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Yes they did include extreme mental suffering in the supreme court decision.

The rules will need to be structured carefully to deal with all options.

But it sounds like you are saying that a homeless person who has extreme mental health suffering shouldn't be allowed to make this decision, if he chooses. He should be different under the law?

Becuase you think his mental health issues are a result of his homelessness? How presumptuous of you
 
Lastpointe said:
Yes they did include extreme mental suffering in the supreme court decision.

The rules will need to be structured carefully to deal with all options.

But it sounds like you are saying that a homeless person who has extreme mental health suffering shouldn't be allowed to make this decision, if he chooses. He should be different under the law?

Becuase you think his mental health issues are a result of his homelessness? How presumptuous of you
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No he shouldn't. He should see a social worker for living supports and counselling. And yes I do think his homelessness is a factor in his mental health. Not presumptuous at all in any bad way.
 
Of course his homelessness is part of his condition. But you are presumptuous to decide that you know better for him than he does.

And you dont get it

It boggles the mind that you insist no one understands disabilities except you and that you are the arbiter of all that should be done.
 
So in your mind, someone who is homeless and has mental health issues, as many do' should be treated as less than an equal adult, but instead should have decisions made for them by the power of kimmio.
 
Lastpointe said:
Of course his homelessness is part of his condition. But you are presumptuous to decide that you know better for him than he does.

And you dont get it

It boggles the mind that you insist no one understands disabilities except you and that you are the arbiter of all that should be done.
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I don't. I just take a very specific strong black and white stand with a particular academic view on disability issues and mental health issues - I often see there is no grey - and I happen to have a disability.
 
Kimmio said:
I don't. I just take a very specific strong black and white stand with a particular academic view on disability issues and mental health issues - I often see there is no grey - and I happen to have a disability.
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Inability to see and understand the nuanced grey is much more likely to lead the slippery slope you are so worried about. Careful conversation about all the many shades of grey helps us parse the distinction between illness, disability, suffering, and so on.
 
@DaisyJane This is what lastpointe said
Lastpointe said:
Yes they did include extreme mental suffering in the supreme court decision.

The rules will need to be structured carefully to deal with all options.

But it sounds like you are saying that a homeless person who has extreme mental health suffering shouldn't be allowed to make this decision, if he chooses. He should be different under the law?

Becuase you think his mental health issues are a result of his homelessness? How presumptuous of you
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You said @DaisyJane that you were concerned for the vulnerability of people who might be homeless and mentally ill. You agreed with me. And now you just did an about face.

Do you or do you not see that the social model of disability is an important distinction from the medical model equating impairment with disability and how that affects these decisions?
 
DaisyJane said:
Inability to see and understand the nuanced grey is much more likely to lead the slippery slope you are so worried about. Careful conversation about all the many shades of grey helps us parse the distinction between illness, disability, suffering, and so on.
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Sometimes, particularly to protect the right to life of vulnerable people you have to take a side and stand by it. And there is a right and a wrong.
 
I don't see the usefulness of using any one model to inform our decisions. Suffering is far to complex an issue to reduce it to a unidimensional construct.
 
Kimmio said:
Sometimes, particularly to protect the right to life of vulnerable people you have to take a side and stand by it.
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People who are dying and in extreme, untreatable pain are vulnerable as well.

You do not own the rights to disability and vulnerability.
 
I think you are mixing up the causes of a persons illness with the inability to live with their pain.

So your hypothetical homeless person.

He is in unbelievable mental pain and suffering.

Of course, like any patient thinking about death he should be offered all help possible.

You seem to feel that this hypothetical person will just mysteriously appear at the hospital , ask for death and no one will blink twice.

Tht would simply not happen.

And that is why your energy should not be put towards complaining that your side lost the battle with the supreme court

Your energy should be put towards ensuring that people you are concerned about will be protected

I agree. Protections need to be in place

But i am also not going to be the person that arbitrarily decides that i know best for someone else

This homeless person , who is i supreme pain, should get support, counselling, compassion and choices

Just like the person with a terminal painful illness should get support, counselling, compassion and choices
 
Kimmio said:
Vulnerable to systemic abuse who are not dying. Don't mince my words you know what I meant.
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Seriously?


I think you are displaying a glaring lack of respect for people with disabilities.

Only you know best

Only you know how terrible this new law, when it is crafted will be

Yet only you seem to be unable to get off this highhorse and start the process of discussion for what should be done to both protect and honour people

Despite what you would like to see happen, an adult is an adult and has a right to control over their body, as the supreme court has said

Give us a list of five things you think are vital to a new law.

Lets discuss something tangible

Lets not spend days more hearing about how only you knowbest
 
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So...I expect that at some point in the near future a doctor will suggest suicide to me or a peer like me during a depressive episode. It's going to happen. And I will sue him/ her should that happen. If I make it. (I am not dsuicidal but I don't like the suggestion that it's an option should I feel I am suffering too much) It is very scary - the value of life just dramatically declined in people's minds. I certainly will be writing my MP.
 
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DaisyJane said:
I agree with you LP. As I pointed out earlier, I am worried that specialson, aka Matthew, may suffer needlessly because he cannot consent.

Today there was a detailed obit in our newspaper. It shared the story of a woman like Matthew who died over the weekend. She lived her last few years in total pain because of her cerebral palsy and the deformities that had developed following years of spasticity. I read that article and my heart broke. That is my greatest fear. I am not afraid that some roving group of physicians will start overdosing people with disabilities because they are cheaper dead. I am afraid that I will have to watch Matthew suffer for a prolonged period of time with poorly managed pain because he does not have the abilities to tell us his wishes, or even to effectively communicate his pain. I am worried his death will be an agonizing journey through deterioration and I will be forced to watch with no ability to influence the situation.
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So ... this Supreme Court decision has no bearing on your reality ... it is really about nothing ... people that are capable of consenting were always capable of consenting and if they could find no legal recourse they could capably end their lives with or without legal permission. In Matthews case you have no ability to influence the situation?
 
Kimmio said:
So...I expect that at some point in the near future a doctor will suggest suicide to me or a peer like me during a depressive episode. It's going to happen. And I will sue him/ her should that happen. If I make it. (I am not dsuicidal but I don't like the suggestion that it's an option should I feel I am suffering too much) It is very scary - the value of life just dramatically declined in people's minds. I certainly will be writing my MP.
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You're out of your f***ing gourd. Doctors are going to be prescribing suicide, are they?

Seriously, you are so blinded by emotion, you aren't even listening to yourself, let alone others.

I'm going back to putting you on "ignore". This is a disaster of a thread, and your insistence that doctors want people with disabilities to die is just beyond disgusting, and has no basis in reality. You're using your delusions and your mistrust to try to prevent people from the end they want, for good and compassionate reasons.

Honestly, I'd recommend to DaisyJane that she use the ignore function as well. This can't be good for her, either, and she has already demonstrated far more understanding and compassion than you have. There is nothing she can say that you will listen to. You've annointed yourself the saviour of people with disabilities, whether they want you to be they're spokesperson or not, and whether you grasp their opinions or not.
 
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chansen said:
You're out of your f***ing gourd. Doctors are going to be prescribing suicide, are they?

Seriously, you are so blinded by emotion, you aren't even listening to yourself, let alone others.
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Ditto


Get a grip kimmio. No one is going to counsel suicide
 
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