Drudaosha: A Spiritual Framework for a Changing World

[Luce NDs]

I find that mystical is nothing ... because we know little about what hasn't been experienced ...

Then the joke turns on us if we believe we knew all about it ...

Such comments get really raise some steam --- RL Stevenson.

 

[Pavlos Maros]

@Pavlos Maros And your entire agument has been to simply call it ‘physical’ and thereby render materialism unfalsifiable by mere linguistic definition.

Ultimately, of course, it is our understanding of what is really going on that matters; our understanding of who and what we are, what reality is, and how we relate to the rest of nature.

It’s not about labels or personal vindication.

Thomas Kuhn’s paradigm shift is unfolding before our very eyes.

@Kindred Seer - I apologize for the digression.

You made me spit my coffee out! That's a fundamental misunderstanding of how science works. Materialism isn't unfalsifiable by "linguistic definition" it makes specific, testable predictions that could be proven wrong.
If you could demonstrate consciousness operating independently of brains, telepathy working under controlled conditions, or any mystical claim producing reliable, measurable effects, materialism would be in serious trouble. The problem is that every time these claims are rigorously tested, they fail.
Science doesn't just label everything "physical" to protect itself, it follows evidence wherever it leads. When quantum mechanics seemed to violate classical physics, science adapted. When relativity overturned Newton, science changed. That's how paradigm shifts actually work.
Your mystical claims, by contrast, are designed to be unfalsifiable, whenever they're tested and fail, proponents just say "science can't measure spiritual realities" or "you need special consciousness to perceive them."
Invoking Kuhn doesn't help your case. Scientific paradigm shifts happen because new theories make better predictions and explain more data, not because someone decides ancient wisdom was right all along.
If there's really a paradigm shift happening, show the data. What specific, measurable predictions do mystical theories make that materialism gets wrong?

 

[Luce NDs]

There are folk that really believe they grasp it all ... and then something happens to break that grasp ... and then something in mentally adrift ... kind 've out there!

Few folks are concerned with anything beyond their core self and miss the critical nature of the dark network ... the mystical force ... virtue unseen?

Thus palls and other covers ...

 

[Luce NDs]

This entire discussion thread reminds me of how many things are ill-disposed in the matter of avoiding stress by driving it underground ... subtle?

How many facets of stress are there that powers may attempt to deny ... seems to me an entity with many facets like the myriad of Stress Disorders that mark mortals ...and the means for reduction that must be approached cautiously with some knowledge of the consequences. One author addressed it as a irrational search for the dopamine effect that perhaps should have been "affect" as that has an entire different psychological attachment.

The integral topic is a monster once you get into it. A distant associate said that neural-limbic-psyche profusions are extremely complex ... an enigma for the Global Soul ... if they could only gather some senses! Does that approach empathy and thus denied due to hauntings? Spirits in the great gonad ...

 

[Luce NDs]

The monstrous thing may appear as an icon in one edifice where it appears as a spray of golden needles... connected perhaps by silver communications ... mature heads up ... like that classic logic tree.
Yesterday I saw a post that identified poison hemlock as what we now know as Giant Hogwarts ... suggest anything? There's liable to be stories ...
Then some presumed sensitivity authorities also wrote books on intimate personal relations spectra ... that some stone walled folk cannot accept as indication of evolving human nature during peculiar times of stress ... sects accrue as in omega d' est the occidental ridge ...

 

[WhyCzar]

I also noticed that the mystical core of most spiritual paths shared more in common than all their cultural and dogmatic differences.

@Pavlos Maros this is the topic at hand. If you want to continue to debate theories of consciousness perhaps you could start a new thread. I agree with Kindred's statement above and was trying to respond to that. I too lean towards the mystical core and draw inspiration from the philosophers and scientists bygone and emerging, east and west, that lean towards that "spiritual" path.

 

[Luce NDs]

I do believe that too many people are confused to what spiritual is interpreted as. Is it an emotional state that can be fickle and blind, or the opposite spirit that is offspring of knowledge and wisdom. Would great powers encourage keeping the mod in an ignorant state so they would not be enlightened to what the powers are doing to them ... and more aware of the fear anger essence in their inhibited psyche?

People just do not question the state of soul to such depth! Then one asks if there is something at the core evaluating the transient soul from the inside as a figure of speech? All this is buried in the context of myth as what is told in the vernacular (commons) vs what the powers record as law.

It would certainly echo the friction between essence of Pharisee and Sadducee ... something that would be very cloudy to the uneducated in social science according to philosophers lie the dark prince Machiavelli? This is just too far out for the uninitiated in adept topics ... immediately prone to elimination by the powers ...

 

[Pavlos Maros]

@Pavlos Maros this is the topic at hand. If you want to continue to debate theories of consciousness perhaps you could start a new thread. I agree with Kindred's statement above and was trying to respond to that. I too lean towards the mystical core and draw inspiration from the philosophers and scientists bygone and emerging, east and west, that lean towards that "spiritual" path.

You're the one who brought up consciousness theories, paradigm shifts, Kuhn, Jung, and that long list of authors as evidence for mystical beliefs! I was responding directly to your claims about neuroscience supporting mysticism and materialism "disintegrating."
You can't spend several posts making specific arguments about consciousness and science, then suddenly claim it's off topic when asked to back up those arguments with evidence.
If you want to "lean towards the mystical core" based on personal preference, that's fine, just don't dress it up as if it's scientifically validated or intellectually superior to evidence-based thinking.
The original Drudaosha discussion was about someone creating their own belief system after rejecting dogma. Whether you call it mystical inspiration or ancient wisdom, you're still advocating for organizing your worldview around unfalsifiable claims rather than evidence.
If you truly agree with the original poster about rejecting dogma, why defend belief systems that can't be tested or verified?

 

[Luce NDs]

An American friend communicated with me over the last few days about ordinary, an illogical thing to either end of the rod and shaft of para ... like running along with the opposite as a moderator. Imagine a text saying that ordinary is unlikely, or myth!

Yet it seems that the mean/medium is difficult to come by (bai)! If it happens there is Cherenkov radiance that blue glow ... as things go dippy ... the chilling trend of relating? Some say this is empathy ... deeper than sympathy ... gets you right in the midst!

Requires Innis and Oudist ... exodus and exegesis ... you get out of the text a lot more if you put some effort intuit! Work affect ... effective? We are learning to live with doing nothing of the sort ... causing loss of skills ... even the dream thereof ...

Consider the intellect of tyrannical palls ... smokers ... much smear is left behind ... up and at 'M is the expression ... output must be balanced also! Too much production can result in less durability and the entire item will fail ... scatter of state? That unravelled ... excess margins?

How margins are expanded secretly is corrupt ... everything becomes Eire ... Ari? return of Ani may be required ... that's concern, bother, worry about quality in sealing up ...

Don't know what I'm speaking of ... that's good the underground thrives ... one the great unknown ... ganglia stretch and Mycenae connect an aerobe-septic balance ... breathless! Airless oxidation ... inside burning?

 

[Kindred Seer]

Over the past century, some of the most solid discoveries in physics and biology have revealed a universe far stranger and more interconnected than classical science once assumed. Quantum mechanics demonstrated that matter and energy do not behave as fixed, deterministic objects but instead as probability waves, with reproducible experiments confirming phenomena like wave–particle duality, uncertainty, and nonlocal entanglement. These effects, observed and verified in controlled laboratory conditions, show that particles can remain correlated across vast distances and that the act of measurement itself plays a role in physical outcomes. Similarly, relativity established that time and space are not absolute backdrops but fluid and relational, bending with mass and energy -- a result confirmed repeatedly by empirical tests such as gravitational lensing and GPS satellite corrections.


Biology has also overturned long-standing assumptions. Rigorous experiments in quantum biology have shown that plants exploit quantum coherence in photosynthesis to transfer energy with near-perfect efficiency, and migratory birds appear to use entangled particles in their eyes to navigate Earth’s magnetic field. Neuroscience has confirmed the brain’s neuroplasticity, demonstrating that focused practices like meditation can measurably reshape neural circuits, alter brainwave activity, and improve mental health outcomes. The placebo effect, documented across countless clinical trials, further proves that belief and expectation alone can trigger measurable physiological changes. Each of these findings stands on the foundation of reproducible, peer-reviewed science. Taken together, they underscore that even within the strict bounds of materialist inquiry, the universe exhibits profound interconnectedness and hidden depths—realities that echo what mystics have intuited for millennia.

David Bohm (1917–1992, theoretical physicist, protégé of Einstein)

“The notion that all these fragments [of reality] are separately existent is evidently an illusion, and this illusion cannot do other than lead to endless conflict and confusion. The notion of division between mental and physical, and between inner and outer, is also an illusion. These divisions are convenient for practical purposes, but ultimately they are not true.”
(Wholeness and the Implicate Order, 1980)

 

[Luce NDs]

I cannot say because I do not know or understand all the intelligence that is out there, not to mention the emotional affect but it might appear that what is sometimes labelled "God" is a multidimensional integral. Wouldn't that be something to view from another angle or step in evolution!

That would be enough to cause chaos in single dimensional views ... a science all its own? Could a mire mortal get into that without an open skill-set?

The stuff we don't know is exceptional ... I was told in straight line terms there are no exceptions ... defining rigidity ... by any label!

 

[Pavlos Maros]

Over the past century, some of the most solid discoveries in physics and biology have revealed a universe far stranger and more interconnected than classical science once assumed. Quantum mechanics demonstrated that matter and energy do not behave as fixed, deterministic objects but instead as probability waves, with reproducible experiments confirming phenomena like wave–particle duality, uncertainty, and nonlocal entanglement. These effects, observed and verified in controlled laboratory conditions, show that particles can remain correlated across vast distances and that the act of measurement itself plays a role in physical outcomes. Similarly, relativity established that time and space are not absolute backdrops but fluid and relational, bending with mass and energy -- a result confirmed repeatedly by empirical tests such as gravitational lensing and GPS satellite corrections.


Biology has also overturned long-standing assumptions. Rigorous experiments in quantum biology have shown that plants exploit quantum coherence in photosynthesis to transfer energy with near-perfect efficiency, and migratory birds appear to use entangled particles in their eyes to navigate Earth’s magnetic field. Neuroscience has confirmed the brain’s neuroplasticity, demonstrating that focused practices like meditation can measurably reshape neural circuits, alter brainwave activity, and improve mental health outcomes. The placebo effect, documented across countless clinical trials, further proves that belief and expectation alone can trigger measurable physiological changes. Each of these findings stands on the foundation of reproducible, peer-reviewed science. Taken together, they underscore that even within the strict bounds of materialist inquiry, the universe exhibits profound interconnectedness and hidden depths—realities that echo what mystics have intuited for millennia.

David Bohm (1917–1992, theoretical physicist, protégé of Einstein)

You're making a classic logical error, using genuine scientific discoveries to justify unrelated spiritual beliefs. Yes, quantum mechanics is strange, but quantum effects occur at subatomic scales and don't magically validate chakras or spiritual energy systems. The "interconnectedness" of quantum entanglement is a specific physical phenomenon with precise mathematical descriptions, not some cosmic spiritual connection.
Your examples actually support materialist explanations: neuroplasticity shows meditation works through measurable brain changes, not mystical energy. The placebo effect demonstrates psychological power, not spiritual forces. Quantum biology explains photosynthesis efficiency through physics, not mysticism.

You're essentially arguing "science reveals weird things, therefore my spiritual framework could be true", which isn't logical reasoning.
The fact that reality is stranger than classical physics assumed doesn't mean any arbitrary metaphysical claim becomes plausible.
These discoveries reveal nature's genuine complexity and mystery within materialist frameworks. They don't create a backdoor for unfalsifiable spiritual systems. David Bohm's legitimate physics contributions don't validate chakra mappings any more than Einstein's theories validate astrology.

The universe is profoundly strange and interconnected, through gravity, electromagnetism, evolutionary biology, and quantum mechanics.
Why do you need to add unverifiable spiritual layers when reality itself is already so extraordinary?

 

[Kindred Seer]

You're making a classic logical error, using genuine scientific discoveries to justify unrelated spiritual beliefs. Yes, quantum mechanics is strange, but quantum effects occur at subatomic scales and don't magically validate chakras or spiritual energy systems. The "interconnectedness" of quantum entanglement is a specific physical phenomenon with precise mathematical descriptions, not some cosmic spiritual connection.
Your examples actually support materialist explanations: neuroplasticity shows meditation works through measurable brain changes, not mystical energy. The placebo effect demonstrates psychological power, not spiritual forces. Quantum biology explains photosynthesis efficiency through physics, not mysticism.

You're essentially arguing "science reveals weird things, therefore my spiritual framework could be true", which isn't logical reasoning.
The fact that reality is stranger than classical physics assumed doesn't mean any arbitrary metaphysical claim becomes plausible.
These discoveries reveal nature's genuine complexity and mystery within materialist frameworks. They don't create a backdoor for unfalsifiable spiritual systems. David Bohm's legitimate physics contributions don't validate chakra mappings any more than Einstein's theories validate astrology.

The universe is profoundly strange and interconnected, through gravity, electromagnetism, evolutionary biology, and quantum mechanics.
Why do you need to add unverifiable spiritual layers when reality itself is already so extraordinary?

No, you missed the point. Modern science over the past 25 years has actually been validating the efficacy of many things that were dismissed as “quackery” for the past 250.

Practices like meditation, mindfulness, hypnosis, and even certain forms of energy healing are no longer just anecdotes... they’ve been studied and shown to produce measurable effects on the brain and body.

The issue, to me, is that science isn’t a neutral oracle of truth. It’s a human institution, with its own gatekeeping, biases, and blind spots. Like religion in its institutionalized form, it often sets the boundaries of what can be discussed, what counts as valid, and who gets to be taken seriously. That doesn’t mean science is bad -- it’s one of the most powerful tools we have. But it does mean we should be careful not to confuse science as a method with "Science" as an institution that sometimes enforces dogma just as tightly as the religious authorities it once rebelled against.

 

[Pavlos Maros]

No, you missed the point. Modern science over the past 25 years has actually been validating the efficacy of many things that were dismissed as “quackery” for the past 250.

Practices like meditation, mindfulness, hypnosis, and even certain forms of energy healing are no longer just anecdotes... they’ve been studied and shown to produce measurable effects on the brain and body.

The issue, to me, is that science isn’t a neutral oracle of truth. It’s a human institution, with its own gatekeeping, biases, and blind spots. Like religion in its institutionalized form, it often sets the boundaries of what can be discussed, what counts as valid, and who gets to be taken seriously. That doesn’t mean science is bad -- it’s one of the most powerful tools we have. But it does mean we should be careful not to confuse science as a method with "Science" as an institution that sometimes enforces dogma just as tightly as the religious authorities it once rebelled against.

Lol. You're moving the goalposts now. First you claimed quantum mechanics validates mystical traditions, now you're saying science has validated some previously dismissed practices. These are completely different points.

Yes, meditation and mindfulness have measurable neurological effects, that's exactly what materialist explanations would predict. Brain activity changes through focused practice. No chakras or spiritual energy required. This validates neuroscience, not mysticism.

Your "science as institution vs. method" critique is a convenient deflection. When science supports your views (meditation works!), you cite it approvingly. When it doesn't support your metaphysical claims (no evidence for chakras), suddenly science becomes a dogmatic institution with "blind spots."
You can't have it both ways, celebrating scientific validation of meditation's brain effects while simultaneously dismissing scientific standards when they don't support your spiritual framework. That's cherry-picking, not critical thinking.

The fact that some folk practices have measurable effects doesn't mean folk beliefs are valid.
Aspirin comes from willow bark, but that doesn't validate homeopathy.
Some meditation techniques affecting brain chemistry doesn't validate your seven-chakra spiritual system.

You're essentially arguing: "Science was wrong about some things before, therefore my unverifiable spiritual claims might be right." That's not logical reasoning, it's wishful thinking dressed up as intellectual critique.

Very amusing.

 

[Luce NDs]

I cannot take anything as cast in cement in line with quantum episodes where there are determined observations that would stonewall anything that suggested change and observation ... thus the moving perspective ... what's the chance of anything or everything being solid given the extreme indoctrination processes ... abstract is exceptional ...

 

[Mendalla]

You know, I had more to say on the original topic of this thread but I doubt it will even be noticed now. The debate over science and what it says about religious/spiritual experience is not going to be settled here and we likely each have our own takeaways from it. Mystical experiences happen to people, the only question is whether they represent an external reality breaking in (God or whatever) or an internal reality awakening (whether through neurological events or some kind of non-physical consciousness) or some kind of interface of the two. In the end, they are subjective and what matters in the context of the OP as I read it is how a person's experience and that person's understanding of that experience impacts one's own life and thoughts, leading to things like the original poster's personal religious framework (which at no time did @Kindred Seer suggest was right or valid for everyone so not sure why it needs to be dissected and critiqued as such). That element of personal experience and how it manifests in one's life certainly interests me more than this rather acrimonious, tiresome debate.

 

[Pavlos Maros]

You know, I had more to say on the original topic of this thread but I doubt it will even be noticed now. The debate over science and what it says about religious/spiritual experience is not going to be settled here and we likely each have our own takeaways from it. Mystical experiences happen to people, the only question is whether they represent an external reality breaking in (God or whatever) or an internal reality awakening (whether through neurological events or some kind of non-physical consciousness) or some kind of interface of the two. In the end, they are subjective and what matters in the context of the OP as I read it is how a person's experience and that person's understanding of that experience impacts one's own life and thoughts, leading to things like the original poster's personal religious framework (which at no time did @Kindred Seer suggest was right or valid for everyone so not sure why it needs to be dissected and critiqued as such). That element of personal experience and how it manifests in one's life certainly interests me more than this rather acrimonious, tiresome debate.

Then I shall stop. But the dogma for a new dogma must stand. Never understood changing one for another, especially when it is said they don't like it.

 

[WhyCzar]

I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Practicing symbolic activities allowing for connection with our natural selves.

Fostering community bonds that transcend individual experiences.

Celebrating shared heritage across generations.

Embracing borrowed wisdom from ancient traditions.

Paths toward authentic living informed by spirituality’s rich tapestry woven over millennia.

 

[Mendalla]

I have been thinking more about the "Spiritual Framework" idea and how it might related to some thoughts I had in my active UU days. It's actually a sermon I gave twice, once in my own fellowship and once as a guest in a neighbouring one.

UUs have Principles, which are kind of our basic framework within which we try to live, and we have Sources, the texts and traditions that inform our spiritual development. Both are collections of fairly broad statements, almost motherhood and apple pie level though some are more profound than that.

The Sources Of Our Living Tradition are what I was focussing on in those sermons, specifically how we as individuals might take them into our own spiritual lives and practice. I'll put them at the end of the post.

Basically, my contention was that no individual UU really takes the whole set of them as sources of their individual spirituality, but rather engages with a subset of the sources that have caught their attention or informed them in some way. And in my sermon, I discussed how that subset could be seen as each person's individual, personalized "scripture". So I posted a list upthread of religious and philosophical traditions that have informed my spiritual path, and those would be my "scripture". It's not a scripture given by God or enforced by some kind of canon, but a scripture shaped by our own spiritual thoughts and discoveries, by our "free and responsible search for truth and meaning", which is the 4th UU Principle.

So in a way, this scripture, this collection of texts and teachings that have informed my search for meaning, is my framework, such as it is. The Principles are kind of in there, too, especially the first and seventh (the inherent worth and dignity of each person, the web of all existence of which we are a part). The others matter, too, but those two are, to my mind, the logical base from which the others are derived.

I am using CUC (Canadian Unitarian Council) as the source (ha ha) for this as the UUA (Unitarian Universalist Association, the American body) have adopted a new framework of one word shared values which replaces the principles and sources in the US. This development is quite new that I have not really engaged with it yet. If I can find my talking points for the sermon and get them into PDF, I'll post them here as well.

The living tradition which we share draws from many sources:

• Direct experience of that transcending mystery and wonder, affirmed in all cultures, which moves us to a renewal of the spirit and an openness to the forces which create and uphold life;
• Words and deeds of prophetic people which challenge us to confront powers and structures of evil with justice, compassion, and the transforming power of love;
• Wisdom from the world’s religions which inspires us in our ethical and spiritual life;
• Jewish and Christian teachings which call us to respond to God’s love by loving our neighbours as ourselves;
• Humanist teachings which counsel us to heed the guidance of reason and the results of science, and warn us against idolatries of the mind and spirit;
• Spiritual teachings of Earth-centred traditions which celebrate the sacred circle of life and instruct us to live in harmony with the rhythms of nature.

The UU Principles and Sources on the Canadian Unitarian Council website.

 

[Mendalla]

Practicing symbolic activities allowing for connection with our natural selves.

Fostering community bonds that transcend individual experiences.

Celebrating shared heritage across generations.

Embracing borrowed wisdom from ancient traditions.

Paths toward authentic living informed by spirituality’s rich tapestry woven over millennia.

Ever thought about becoming UU? That really sounds very UU, esp. the last couple. I quite like that as a framework, too. Really resonates more with my life and path.