Does the "Holy Spirit" exist beyond time and space?

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Peter Chynoweth

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The following post is a re-posting of a discussion I started at unitedfuture.ca

I am posting it here as well based on a recommendation from one of my respondents (Jim Kenney) who suggested that Wondercafe and Wondercafe2 might be a place to initiate this kind of discussion.

I'm sorry if you construe this as spamming, or cross-posting. I only had two respondents at unitedfuture.ca, and maybe that is all that the topic deserves, but I think it is quite an important and current issue and that it has legs with the kind of community that is attracted to wondercafe(2).

I added a slight bit extra on Wondercafe, so that's the (edited) one I will post here. It follows:

I don't have a lot of time to edit the piece for this forum, but I suspect it will transfer fairly well. I can add one piece of information: When I refer to the Observer article, the article I am specifically referring to is in the January 2012 issue. The article is "Rules for the digital road" and in the article, Karen Smart and Whit Strong, if you take their comments literally, prohibit the Holy Spirit from exisiting outside of "real time". It may be a Smart and Strong argument (I couldn't resist) but I think it is neither! Here's the original from United Future:

The Comprehensive Review (of The United Church of Canada) has often (always?) said it was an invitation to 'think outside the box'. The Manual has been clear in the past, bolstered by decisions made by General Secretaries and confirmed in Observer articles (I can get specific, if you need me to) that the 'Holy Spirit' can only exist in 'real time'. Decisions must be made in face to face gatherings, or by conference call. So YOU don't need to be present, but your voice does, and your voice must be there at the same time as every other voice. I believe this is 'inside the box' thinking.

Many important things in our day and age and in the past have been discovered, discussed, learned, and inspired not in face to face, real time discussions, but in a healthy back and forth, with time for discernment, with well stated points of view, with well argued defenses and vigorously proposed theses.

I think the 'Holy Spirit' has been present in these times as well. I think it is time for us to say that the Holy Spirit transcends time and space, and that the Holy Spirit can indeed inspire decisions which are not made in 'real time'.

What do you think? Is it time for our decision making processes to acknowledge the high degree of collaboration which is happening in our day and age and allow for decisions which would lift up other ways of expressing inspiration?

Sometimes when the Holy Spirit is supposed to be present, it is the loudest voice, or the most well argued position that wins the day and the vote.. Sometimes the Holy Spirit is present in the still small voice, in the time taken for careful consideration and in the inarticulate, anxious words of someone who is shy.

You know where I stand on these questions, What about you?

 
It is like Deja Vu all over again.

Since Peter brings his post over here I might as well bring my response over here too.

Thanks for this Peter. You make a compelling point.

I’m not entirely convinced by it but I find it compelling none the less.

I wrestle with the idea that my voice can be present even if I myself am not.

We can communicate through this medium and we can experience fairly successful communication through this medium even though there are bits and pieces of the whole message that are lost by this medium. If we were present together those bits and pieces would work with what we type and quite possibly those bits and pieces would add a nuance or a tone that is completely absent from the sterile electronic image we are creating.

Indeed. There are times when I can communicate better through actual presence then I can with any number of words no matter how well chosen.

That said, I think the Holy Spirit is more than able to use words on a page, or some device as a launch pad for movement within the heart and mind of the individual who reads them.

Speaking is important, however it is managed.

Being present must count for something too or incarnation would be of no consequence.

If one cannot be present it would be better to be a cry from some distance than the sound of nothing.
 
I reread your post peter and i find it intriguing

I picture a raucous meeting and someone approaching the mic. The message is shared and then other voices continue.

The meeting ends.

Maybe a decision is made, maybe not

But in the wee hours of the morning, the words spoken by that sole person come to a few, they see wisdom that was missed in the noise.

And.....the spirit that was present in the meeting, continues to work in the community, in the thoughts of people walking through the woods, or dreaming and processing, or the quiet study of online discussion
 
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I think that before you start positing that the Holy Spirit exists beyond time and space, you have to establish that the Holy Spirit exists at all. Given that we don't have a good explanation for the Holy Spirit or any reason to believe in it, you've got your work cut out for you.
 
Peter, I will read this again and think about it. My first thoughts are that your position allows for introverts to percolate. I am inclined to agree that real time discussions are "inside the box" thinking.

I need to think....
 
I think the Holy Spirit is contained with the prefix "uni". It is the Unitive Principle or Spirit of the universe, the very unitiveness of our unified universe. It is the unity that underlies all diversity.

And, because the state of unity is a state of synthesis, in which there are no opposites, it is beyond analytical comprehension, and is best perceived intuitively, in the pure or unconceptualized experience of being, as in meditation.
 
I don't remember what I posted in United Future. If people can vote at advance polls in federal, provincial and municipal elections, then I believe commissioners should have a wide window for voting on issues at General Council, and not be confined to brief balloting periods. I, for one, would have more confidence in electronic voting than the voting I experienced at General Council in 2012.
 
St. Thomas Aquinas differentiates between the eternal, natural, human (or positive) and divine laws. The subjects addressed in each of these laws I think can give us some understanding of the Holy Spirit re: the question of time and space.

The Eternal law is the cosmic order that comes from God, and we cannot know it in it's entirety because it exists outside of time. The Divine law is God's commandments . They are knowable because they exist in time. Aquinas had a non-teleological, progressive understanding of history and thus time had significant meaning to him. It could be argued either way that the holy spirit exists within or outside time & space, or at least time. If you believe the holy spirit is knowable, then it would probably come from the same place as the divine law: i.e. in time. However, if you believe the holy spirit is not entirely knowable, then it could transcend and exist outside of time.

If you (like most people probably) believe that the holy spirit is not entirely knowable, then it is probably because it doesn't need to exist in time per se, because it is eternal.

-Omni
 
The_Omnissiah said:
If you (like most people probably) believe that the holy spirit is not entirely knowable, then it is probably because it doesn't need to exist in time per se, because it is eternal.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily. It could be because it is entirely made up. Given that we have no evidence that it exists, I think the more likely conclusion is that it gets binned with all the other characters in fiction.
 
Well, spacelessness and timelessness are two of the eleven dimensions of the String Theory universe.

If, as I speculate, the "Holy Spirit" is the creative, transcendental or transformative power or force of the universe, then the Holy Spirit is and is not beyond space and time. It transcends both, and transforms spacelessness into space and timelessness into time.

Not only religious and spiritual people, but also atheistic or agnostic people and even scientists experience a numinous feeling, a feeling of holy awe, a feeling of the divine, spiritual, or sacred when contemplating the universe and its laws, powers and forces.

The non-scientific explanations of these laws and forces are to be regarded as metaphorical, not as absolutely true. The scientific explanations come closest to truth, but are not absolutely true, either. Even scientific truth changes as new scientific insights arise. But the numinous or holy feeling remains.


Holy, Sacred Spirit,
Breathe your breath in us!
 
chansen said:
Not necessarily. It could be because it is entirely made up. Given that we have no evidence that it exists, I think the more likely conclusion is that it gets binned with all the other characters in fiction.
Click to expand...


Assume for one minute that it does exist for the sake of exploring the question.

-Omni
 
I don't remember the article. Do I understand the assumption right that the church believes the holy spirit is present in face to face meetings and therefore all meetings and voting has to be held face to face in real time, so no pre- votes, written votes etc.
That really poses the basic question if all decisions made by congregations are really influenced mainly by the holy spirit?
Having attended many meetings, I thoroughly doubt that.
I think, that there is a chance of the spirit working despite the decisions made by the congregation.
However, I do think that spirit only works through people and people need to be hands on and in person, and communication in writing is very limited. You can see this on WC- it has it's place, but communication is not that easy if you can't put a person and a face to it- that's probably why people felt the need to have regional meetings of members over the years of it'sexistence.
 
I think we access the Holy Spirit when we immerse ourselves deeply in the pure experience of reality. When we do that, we experience the unity that underlies all diversity: the oneness or inseparableness that binds everything into one unified and holy whole. This experience often is accompanied by a feeling of holy awe, and by the emotion of universal, unitive love.

If we immerse ourselves in the unitive feeling before a meeting, then our decisions will be influenced by the unitive spirit. This, I think, applies not only to face-to-face meetings but also to virtual meetings, like the ones we have here on wondercafe.

Never-ending wonder, eh? And never-ending love.:)
 
The_Omnissiah said:
Assume for one minute that it does exist for the sake of exploring the question.

-Omni
Click to expand...
In this case, the "Holy Spirit" is being used in place of the more generally accepted "voice of reason" - that well made point or observation that cuts through the noise. In any medium, at any time.

There is no willingness that I've seen to actually address the real problems faced by the UCCan. Everyone is dancing around the question of dwindling belief. Worrying about the timing abilities of one-third of a laughable Trinity is just more avoidance, as I see it.

I'm worried that there is zero interest in actually discussing things that matter, and I'm not even a member. At least this site gets some discussion. The real United Future site is completely dead. Even Aaron has given up. And wondering when and if the Holy Spirit will show up to guide the process makes me want to bash my head against a wall.

It's a bad group that sits around, waiting for one of the others to do something. I don't even know how to describe a group that sits around, waiting for a ghost to do something.
 
I can't for the world understand why the "Holy Spirit" could not simply be regarded as a metaphor for the creative or transcendental power of force of the universe, which demonstrably exists.
 
Here, it really does seem to be used as a metaphor for, "Somebody who finally starts talking sense."
 
the HS of Canada

trudeau.jpg

"just watch me"
 
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