Deconstructing and Recistructing

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unsafe said:
GordW ----you said ----
HOwever 1 John 4:20-21 makes it clear that if you are not doing the second you can not be doing the first so I think it is false to even say they are two separate commandments

I say --

I think GordW you are misunderstanding what this scripture is meaning ------this scripture is talking about Believers who don't support another Believer ----

1 John 4:20-21​

Amplified Bible​

​

20 If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates (works against) his [Christian] brother he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should also [unselfishly] love his brother and seek the best for him.

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Matthew 22:37-39 definitely says ---these are 2 separate commands there GordW ------

Context
The Greatest Commandment
…
…37Jesus declared, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the first and greatest commandment

39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’…

I say
You cannot do the second Command without doing the first ----as the Love here is talking Agape not human Love ------and Agape is a fruit of the Spirit -------
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I find it utterly fascinating that you often rail against people interpreting Scripture and at the same time routinely cite sources like the Ampified and Expanded Bible that explicit;y ADD interpretation to the text.

The Gospel of John (which waas written by a different person(s) than the letters of John and those are both different from John of Patmos who wrote Revelation -- there are a lot of Johns in our tradition) has Jesus say that the commandment is to love one another as we have first been loved. That Gospel says nothing about what the Synoptics (and a great deal of non-Christian Jewish Rabbinic tradition) list as a separate commandment to love GOd with your whole being [comes from Deuteronomy BTW]. I suppose an argument could be made that the Gospel is talking about loving people within the community, but then again Matthew 25 makes it clear that our neighbours are pretty much any one in need...

I stand by my assertion that it is impossible to claim to love God with one's whole being if you do not live lovingly towards the world God created.
 
Is hate demonic ... or something created by alternating gods ... alter egoδ ... in another script!

Thus scattered writ ... Freudian slip ... as psyche departs in humus! Wasted and weeping ... rheum at OI 'd! Ad OIelle frankly said ...

It is a Job of question ...
 
Redbaron said:
An interesting snippet of life from Huffpost. What do you think of it? Have you gone through anything like this?
(Hoping for reflective responses, rather than kneejerk reactions)
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Sadly, it is a familiar story.

A God who doesn't live up to expectations, a church that fails to live up to expectations, life doesn't go according to plan and faith struggles in the presence of doubt.

I can empathize with certain aspects of this story. I've certainly had expectations fail miserably with respect to Church and God. I didn't assign the failure to either God or the Church initially. I always went back to where the expectations had been created to evaluate whether or not my expectations were a product of my imagination and not something I could point to in terms of God or the Church.

I have found, in my experience, that sometimes Christians tend towards pollyannaism and life will beat that out of you given half a chance. Even if pollyannaism isn't in full bloom latent expectations that life with God is materialistically better get roughed up more often than not.

Doubt is a crucible in which faith is tested. Being ashamed of doubt is going to lead one to flee the crucible whenever it presents. Better an untested faith than one that is tested and proven weak or wanting I guess.

I have to admit, I'm not enthused about the crucible myself. It is one way we are matured.

I can identify with much of what this minister struggled with. How many sermons on resurrection can you preach at how many gravesides before you finally need to see a resurrection so you know that there is something there to hold on to? I can count how many such sermons I have preached and the actual resurrection experiences are dwarfed in comparison.

I still believe in a bodily resurrection. I don't believe it will be exactly the same body. I'm not exactly sure what will be different. No Christian doctrine hangs on being able to articulate the precise differences in every measure. I'm sure there are some who pretend to know the whole scope of the resurrection body. I don't need to.

I haven't really been able to measure all of the similar stories to this one against doctrinal beliefs so I don't know if there is a particular point on the Christian spectrum that is more vulnerable to this kind of story than others.

I have three friends who are now former clergy people. Two eventually washed out after one conflict too many and while neither of those two claim to be without fault they waste little time recounting the mistakes that they made along the way and will go on and on about how evil everyone else was in their story. The third never ran into a crisis of faith so much as had a mental health crisis which was not resolved. For him fleeing ministry was necessary. I don't argue with his story. I'd rather him alive doing something else than a dead colleague.

In the clergy circles, I attend it is not unusual to hear about a conflict between clergy and the congregations they serve. That impacts upon identity. Take enough hits and the faith crisis isn't far off.
 
GordW -----you said ---I stand by my assertion that it is impossible to claim to love God with one's whole being if you do not live lovingly towards the world God created.

I say --Well GordW ---that is your right to see things the way you want to ---- :angel:


But this last statement you make here --- if you do not live lovingly towards the world God created.

Are you serious here -----Man had decimated this world God created and you call that Living Lovingly towards the world God created ------again that is your right to thing so ---but I fully disagree with that statement ------Man has shown no love towards God or what God Created ----we have gone wayward to showing love toward God and what God created -----and I stand by that -----

Jesus came to rectify what man has done and without Jesus on us we are wayward human beings who do not love God or what He created --heck many don't believe there is a God at all --so --no love for what God created there -------just saying ----
 
GordW said:
I stand by my assertion that it is impossible to claim to love God with one's whole being if you do not live lovingly towards the world God created.
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A close reading of 1 Corinthians 13 would show that an individual can speak in tongues, have prophetic powers, understand all mysteries, have faith sufficient to move mountains, give their body to be burned or give away all of their possessions, and still rank 0 compared to someone who manages none of that and still finds a way to love.

With that in mind, the story I take away from the article is less about a faith that is deconstructed and reconstructed and a love that has been pervasive every step along the way.

The faith bit, honestly, is a distraction.

We love, according to scripture, because God first loved us.

Rebecca's faith may have been ragdolled her love was constant. And when she found institutionalized ministry difficult she simply found a new ministry to carry out. I think some of her faith may have rested on the sand and when that sand shifted the faith resting on it demonstrated just how vulnerable it was. In that, she is far from unique. Most of us participating in the thread could probably confess the same. Maybe not to the same degree.

Theologically I believe in the doctrine of irresistible grace and so I have no difficulty believing that the God who would called her to one particular ministry would not ever call her to a different kind of ministry.

Some are threatened by this kind of story and appeal to No True Scotsman fallacies. If her faith was real, or strong. or right, she never would have had these kinds of struggles.

Jesus only promises not to break bruised reeds or snuff out smoldering wicks. Jesus never claims he will not bruise a reed or starve a wick into smoldering. John 15: 2 reminds us that even fruitful branches will be pruned to produce more fruit. Ask a vine how it feels about being pruned. I doubt they look forward to it.
 
I am posting this to clarify what 1 John 4 is all about ---there are many who just read the Threads Posted and they do not post ---this Love Business is very important for people to get in my view -----and this Book of ! John 4 makes clear what it means when it says --God first loved us ----and if you read the chapter it gives the clear picture of what this means ----

The first part of this Chapter is Testing the Spirits ---don't believe everything you hear Folks----read all if you wish --just posting these parts -----

www.biblegateway.com

Bible Gateway passage: 1 John 4 - Disciples’ Literal New Testament

Test The Spirits. The Spirit From God Confesses Christ - Beloved, do not be believing every spirit, but be testing the spirits to see if they are from God, because many false-prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that is confessing Jesus Christ...
www.biblegateway.com www.biblegateway.com

1 John 4

Disciples’ Literal New Testament​

Test The Spirits. The Spirit From God Confesses Christ​


4 Beloved, do not be believing every spirit, but be testing the spirits[a] to see if they are from God, because many false-prophets have gone out into the world.

2 By this you know[b] the Spirit[c] of God: every spirit that is confessing Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh is from God.

Be Loving One Another, Because The Love Is From God​

7 Beloved, let us be loving one another. Because the love is from God! And everyone loving has been born from God, and knows God.

8 The one not loving did not know God, because God is love.
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I say -------Posting here --------Greek word for Born in this scripture ----

Strong's Concordance
gennaó: to beget, to bring forth

in the Gospel and First Epistle of John, of God conferring upon men the nature and disposition of his sons, imparting to them spiritual life, i. e. by his own holy power prompting and persuading souls to put faith in Christ and live a new life consecrated to himself; absolutely

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I say --
this is speaking here of being Born Again Folks -----here is the verse --- And everyone loving has been born from God, and knows God.

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God Made His Love Known To Us By Sending His Son​

9 By this God’s love was made-known among[j] us: that God has sent-forth His only-born[k] Son into the world in order that we might live through Him.

10 In this is love— not that we have loved God,but that He loved us, and sent-forth His Son to be the satisfaction[l] for our sins.

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I say ---so here we see that God Loved us first by Sending His Son to free us from our sins ----

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Love Demonstrates Our Mutual Relationship With God, And Gives Us Confidence​

God is love; and the one abiding in the love is abiding in God, and God is abiding in him.

17 By this[r], the love has been perfected with[s] us in order that we may have confidence on the day of judgment.

18 Fear[u] is not in love— rather, perfect love throws fear out, because fear has punishment. And the one fearing has not been perfected in love.
19 We are loving because[v] He first loved us.

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Not Loving One Another As He Commanded Proves That We Do Not Love God​

20 If someone claims that “I love God” and is hating his brother, he is a liar. For the one not loving his brother whom he has seen cannot be loving God Whom he has not seen.

21 And we have this commandment from Him: that the one loving God should be loving his brother also.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I say ---Posting here Greek word for Brother and love in this scripture

Greek word for brother in this Scripture -----
Strong's Concordance
adelphos: a brother
Definition: a brother
Usage: a brother, member of the same religious community, especially a fellow-Christian.

Strong's Concordance
agapaó: to love

agapáō – properly, to prefer, to love; for the believer, preferring to "live through Christ" (1 Jn 4:9,10), i.e. embracing God's will (choosing His choices) and obeying them through His power. 25 (agapáō) preeminently refers to what God prefers as He "is love" (1 Jn 4:8,16). See 26 (agapē).

With the believer, 25 /agapáō ("to love") means actively doing what the Lord prefers, with Him (by His power and direction).

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I say
So it doesn't matter what Bible you use there Folks ----they all say the same thing -----so we see from all this that God loved us first by sending His Son to shed His blood and die on the cross and be resurrected to give us life and freedom from sin and we should Love God by abiding in Him and He in us and obey His will ----and we should show love to our brothers and sisters in Christ -----and if we don't then we don't love God ----

And a true Christian will also love and serve their neighbour as commanded by God because they love God who loved us first by sending His Son to us -----
 
There's a line from one of Garrison Keillor's books, about a daughter returning to Lake Wobegon, to visit her religious father; can't remember the exact book (Going Home, maybe? or something like that) Essentially it says that the daughter sees no evidence to believe in God, but there's lots of signs that God believes in her. (If I remember, she's a school teacher in a different town, and a very gifted one). That scene sort of popped into mind when I read Rebecca's story. I kinda like that idea.
 
Redbaron said:
Essentially it says that the daughter sees no evidence to believe in God, but there's lots of signs that God believes in her.
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I believe, that this in a nutshell is the message of the Gospel and explains how God is gracious,

I believe that there is a moment when our individual faith stories shift from an egocentric position (my faith/works/belief/whatever) to a theocentric position (God's action).

At best humanity cannot initiate the relationship between God and the individual, it can only respond to what God reveals to us. We love because God first loved.

God loved Rebecca and for reasons known only to God, God called Rebecca. In her context, she had to deal with a specific institution to respond to that call. It is a familiar story to most of us who have sought ordination. Most of our testimony points to God calling us first and not us deciding and having to convince God it was a good idea we do so. There are some disasters where the opposite played out, they are far from common.

The closer you become to the institution or the closer you are conditioned to accept that the institution is, largely infallible, the harder it is to give the institution latitude to be anything resembling fallible. This is not me celebrating moral or pastoral failures so much as it is me stating that they are inevitable, even among people who seek to do good.

Moral and Pastoral failures need to be addressed in a healthy and loving manner. The institution is getting better at it but still has a long way to go. The Church (as the body of believers) is so fearful of individual failures that it will look the other way and shift blame if failure becomes public.

So there is a lot of "institution" playing out in Rebecca's story and when the institution's failings become obvious it fails to satisfy.

And yet, despite all the human barnacles marring the appearance of the Church the foundation. God's loving first is undiminished. Because God loved Rebecca first she still has the capacity to love. Other humans function as conduits furthering the love of God or dams trying to inhibit the love of God. God's love ultimately persists. God's grace is ultimately irresistible. Conduits are happily overwhelmed and dams resentfully burst.

The mistake, so far as I read it in Rebecca's story, is thinking that the institution enjoys divine rights. That can be a painful lesson for Christendom thinking when Christendom's reach is so much shorter than it was yesterday.
 
The scripture John 15:2 was brought up -----and just maybe this is what happened to Rebecca --she was one of the dead branches cut off from the vine ------as she was producing no fruit -----she was a professed Christian only -----Many know of God but do not know God personally ----and for anyone entering the Ministry ---not knowing God Personally and by that I mean having a Spiritual Personal Relationship with God will not produce good fruit and therefore to God they are not truly His -----and like a good vinedresser does they cut off the dead branches and prune the good and true branches so they can produce even better fruit -----

John 15

New International Version
The Vine and the Branches​

15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful.

I say ----The Pharisees are a perfect example of professed Christian who knew of God but did not know God ----A vineyard is useless unless it bears fruit -----A fruit tree is useless if it does not bear the fruit it was planted to bear ----it is a dead tree ---and should be cut down ---

There are many Professed Christians in Ministry today and Folks need to be weary of them ----in my view
 
unsafe said:
I say ----The Pharisees are a perfect example of professed Christian who knew of God but did not know God ----A vineyard is useless unless it bears fruit -----A fruit tree is useless if it does not bear the fruit it was planted to bear ----it is a dead tree ---and should be cut down ---
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First, I would point out that the Pharisees were anything BUT professed Christians. You may want to review history of the Judeo-Christian tradition before you continue in that vein.

Secondly, what about pine trees, or oak trees, or maple trees? Or ash trees, or dogwoods? None of them seem to bear edible fruit. By your criteria, should we be chopping them all down, too?
 
parodox3 ----:LOL: -it should be wary -----thanks for the heads up on that ------although listening to a person preach who is not bearing any fruit can make a person weary ----or it does me anyway -----LOL
 
Redbaron ----you said ----Pharisees were anything BUT professed Christians.

You got that right -----they just thought they followed God but in reality they just followed their own pride ------and were cut off from the True Vine -----sliced at the knees you might say ----so the the one's who were True to the Vine could flourish -----
 
Actually, "Pharisees", although Jesus often railed at them, represented the more enduring rabbinical/synagogue tradition, which evolved into modern Judaism. And probably more Jesus' own comfort level, as he seems like a "shul arguer" to me. All those parables and allegory and multiple layers of meaning!

OTOH, the Sadducees were the "temple elite", who were a) co-responsible with Rome for Jesus' death, and b) more or less extinct after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 CE.
 
Redbaron said:
Secondly, what about pine trees, or oak trees, or maple trees? Or ash trees, or dogwoods? None of them seem to bear edible fruit. By your criteria, should we be chopping them all down, too?
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No I don't think we would chop them down because their job is not to bear fruit. It's the fruit trees that don't produce edible fruit that get into trouble.

If the others are coming up with pinecones, acorns or what have you, I think they should be safe.
 
And unpruned vines still produce fruit. Just not maybe of the size, location, quality that the gardener intended.
 
If one were to investigate the meanings of ethos, pathos, logos and morose ... we might be sad to see where some believe it is unsafe to go for fear of learning something beyond a confining institution ... and yet! One may still find everything (god) that you require for the present!

Still ... the silent ones stuck where they're at and not knowing where they come from ... sacred function? Lacking knowledge ... causing a great divide between them and all else ... the knowledge therein may provide wisdom ... but in denial and exclusion ... maybe not!

Imagine getting stuck on limited word ... when the last verse of the GoJ indicates there is much more out there ... something to get onto ... thus ontology's? Brain seizure ... imagination is difficult because of abstract fixation! That's an absolute captivation ...

Then there are those that cannot follow anything ... like when thoughts arise after a difficult day struggling with those of avarice ...

Where do thoughts get formed? It is a mystery ... vague and dark ... perhaps even cloudy! Sur-la ... perhaps up there ... pa thos leading out of that veil after the blind function of loving! Sometimes it is enlightening to Passover all times past, present and future as tense may be ... then we take flight ... as if just an alien passing through ... and still knowing little about all that's beyond us!
 
--Comment from above Post -----And unpruned vines still produce fruit.

Well ---we are not the vine in the Bible -----Jesus is the Vine ----we are the Branches who get all nourishment we need from the one True Vine so we can produce good fruit ------

This says --in Matthew 7 you will know them ---speaking here of False Prophets by the fruit they bear ------verses 17-18

Matthew 7:15-20​

​

New International Version​

True and False Prophets​

15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.

16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.


This is what Rebecca says in the article -----
“After I’d deconstructed my whole belief system and I’d shown God the door, what was left?”

I say -------Her statement here about showing God the door if find very arrogant ----- and it lets me know that she did not know God at all -------she knew of God Only ------

She makes this statement as to why she got into the Ministry in the first place -----

Her quote here from the article

But my heart was still filled with longing for what I’d come to think of as “the Big Dream,” the Biblical vision that had first drawn me into faith.

In that dream, the hungry are fed and the homeless find shelter. Justice and restoration come to those who need it. Love binds us together. Sickness and suffering are no more. We are not abandoned. Death does not have the last word.

I say ----
So she got into Ministry because of a longing that was in her heart which she thought of a the BIG DREAM ---Not because God called her into that Profession ---------then she gives us what that dream was like -----she had an unrealistic dream -and entered the Ministry with an unrealistic frame of mind ----- and was disappointed because her Faith Branch was disconnected from the True Faith Vine and when she saw that there were still people hungry ---still people with no shelter ----still sickness and disease in the world ---justice and restoration didn't come to those who need it --love does't bind us together ----

I say ----
And as far as the last 2 she speaks of here ----We are not abandoned. Death does not have the last word.

My view on this ------We are never abandoned by God ---we abandon God ----and Jesus defeated death for those who abide IN HIM ---------not everyone will choose to abide IN Christ ----so 2nd death is at their door step -----we choose our eternal home -----


So her Bible Vision of a perfect World came crashing down on her she caved in and quit -----the dead branch fell by the wayside --disillusioned and confused ------
 
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