Could Adam be the serpent??

[Luce NDs]

So, to try to explain the blame game.
If it was Adam that was the serpent is speculative but
I believe the woman wanted to protect Adam/man after they partook.
Adam/male blamed the woman and Most High.
The woman blamed the serpent.
I believe the woman lied to buffer any blame to Adam and told Most High a lie to protect him.
Most knew who the serpent was.
I just have a notion about this but I think most High went along with the woman and treated Adam like the serpent she named him at that time and lied.
The following are the consequences of all these actions taken place after partaking.
I believe Adam received twofold consiquences for heeding to his wifes voice yet did not take any blame.
Like I said this is just so one will take a closer look.
Not to convince you that this is true.

Whatever ... complain bitterly until the sweet fruit cracks ... then bury the consequences ...

 

[unsafe]

unsafe says -------Here is one Twisted creation Stories of Adam and Eve for you Bolt_upright ----could this be possible in your mind -----


Women Came Before Men (Twisted Adam and Eve Story) and Fermions

unsafe says ----here is what God says about listening to contrary doctrine

 

[Bolt_upright]

Like I said I'm not here to mislead as I'm not a leader of of anyone but myself. I am not saying this as fact. It is just a notion just like my other thread I posted.
I'm just a bit taken aback by the scripture and probably read too much into it. Who knows.
Don't take me too seriously.
If anything I posted makes you consider going to look in scripture than it is all I can ever hope for.

 

[Jaebius]

Like I said I'm not here to mislead as I'm not a leader of of anyone but myself. I am not saying this as fact. It is just a notion just like my other thread I posted.
I'm just a bit taken aback by the scripture and probably read too much into it. Who knows.
Don't take me too seriously.
If anything I posted makes you consider going to look in scripture than it is all I can ever hope for.

This is Wondercafe2 Bolt. You are always welcome here to wonder, to ponder, to reflect on such notions, to dream.

 

[Pontifex Geronimo 13]

Sure is a lot of inserting stuff that is not there and ignoring what is there.

Was that Most high or most lie?

 

[Bolt_upright]

Sure is a lot of inserting stuff that is not there and ignoring what is there.

Was that Most high or most lie?

I may be a dreamer but a liar is a bit overkill.

 

[Pontifex Geronimo 13]

Not calling you a liar. Just sounds like some demonic stuff you’ve been hearing.

 

[BetteTheRed]

Really, and how are questions, and proposed, hypothetical answers, "demonic"? I mean, FFS, PG13.

 

[Jaebius]

Really, and how are questions, and proposed, hypothetical answers, "demonic"? I mean, FFS, PG13.

Yeah, @Pontifex Geronimo 13, @Bolt_upright's just considering a notion of his and asking for some feedback on it. What's the problem?

 

[revjohn]

For me, the blame game was hard to contend with

That is, I think, by design. Hard to say this is what God says if it can be demonstrated that God has not, in fact, said it. Same goes for the teachings of scripture.

but my Idea came to a spin thinking about the equal dominion between Adam/male and Adam/woman. I believe there was equality beween the man and woman until they fell.

Equality of a sort is certainly present. Genesis 2 clearly has the woman being made as a response to man's loneliness and God determining that loneliness was not good.

They had equal authority as both king and queen of the earth.

Within the context of Genesis 2, they are the sum total of human population. There are no challengers to either title. If you are the only man you get to be King. If you are the only female you get to be Queen. You don't have any princes, princesses, dukes, duchesses, lords or ladies in waiting so your authority though uncontested doesn't extend very far.

My take is that Adam/male had other ideas about equal authority as there is no reference to the woman ever receiving first hand instruction from Most High, to not eat of the tree of knowledge.

Just to clarify your meaning and what I am reading. Are you suggesting that Adam resented the notion of equal authority and intended to dethrone Eve so that he would be the solitary authority or are you suggesting that Adam recognized he was above Eve and engineered his own fall so that they could be on the same level?

Not really sure of the point you are intending to make.

Where did she hear the words then? From the man?

Would that be problematic if that was the case? Is the issue whether or not the man gave an accurate retelling of the instruction or was it flawed information in some way.

The timing suggests that she was not even created when Adam heard the words so did she hear them while still within Adam/man?

Scripture is silent on that particular ability.

Whether she heard it while still in the man or because the man relayed that information to her later it does not change that the information was given does it?

If one can assume she heard it from her husband or Most High or while in the man one can assume anything.

There is a proverb about assumptions. I trust you have heard it?

While she says about not being able to eat of the tree of knowledge. She talks as though it is "ye" or "you" quoting what she obviously heard to who the "whisperer" she was talking to.

Whether we are talking second person singular or second person plural doesn't really change the prohibition does it? We aren't lead anywhere to believe that those who do not eat the fruit will be condemned to death just as those who do eat from it. At any rate both the man and the woman do eat the fruit so the point is moot. There is no innocent party to the transgression. Both ate.

To me, it seems as though the woman felt as though because she didn't hear it first hand she had doubts as to the integrity of what she heard before even included her.

I'm not sure about doubts. There does seem to be an embellishment involved between God giving the command and Eve's retelling of the command.

“You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.”

and

“We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden; 3 but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, nor shall you touch it, or you shall die.’”

The prohibition on touching is unique to Eve's retelling.

It cause her to be deceived.

The prohibition or her understanding of it do not cause her to be deceived. The narrative articulates the factors that led to her being deceived.

But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not die; 5 for God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” 6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate;

The serpent successfully persuades her to see the fruit in a different light.

How can it say in 1 Tim. That Adam is not deceived when he himself was unaware he was eating of the tree of knowledge?

In the context of 1 Timothy it is dangerous to treat 1 Timothy 2: 14 as a stand-alone verse. Paul appeals to the temptation of the woman in the garden to justify his prohibition on women having teaching authority.

In Paul's argument, he is stating that since the serpent tempted the woman rather than the man that women should no longer be in a position to teach men.

Because he was wise as a serpent and was the one who deceived his wife.

That is quite a leap. It requires one to inject into scripture that which the scriptures themselves refuse to teach.

 

[Luce NDs]

Always remember in God's world there are just words ... mortals will save them, justify them and sanctify them ... all without a great deal of understanding ... devilish work!

That's all they are flighty things of impression depending upon where they fall ... but authorities hate individualized folly ... only theirs count ... determinate as compared to indeterminate and uncertain ... a Prin. to many ... thus the scattering ...

Some fecund psyche will be found out there somewhere ... pounded in by the passing of armies ... the genre of psyche is a grand question to pursue right into the trees as a ghostly fabric ...

 

[revjohn]

So, to try to explain the blame game.

Okay. Take a stab at it.

If it was Adam that was the serpent is speculative but

But nothing. It is speculation on your part.

I believe the woman wanted to protect Adam/man after they partook.

Fair enough. That is your belief. It doesn't jive with your insistence that Adam/man is also the serpent. Is she hoping God fails to see that the two are one and the same when she blames the serpent for deceiving her? Does she know that Adam/man is the serpent when she blames the serpent for deceiving her? How can she protect Adam/man unless she actually believes that the Adam/man and the serpent are not the same entity?

Adam/male blamed the woman and Most High.

He did.

The woman blamed the serpent.

She did.

I believe the woman lied to buffer any blame to Adam and told Most High a lie to protect him.

Again, that is inconsistent with your speculation that Adam/man is also the serpent.

Most knew who the serpent was.

Hard to blame something or someone you know nothing about.

I just have a notion about this but

At present that is all you have. A notion. Nothing which you have offered as evidence points the rest of us in the same direction.

I think most High went along with the woman and treated Adam like the serpent she named him at that time and lied.

So, just to make sure I follow your position. Adam/man lies to Eve/woman about the consequences of eating the fruit. The woman eats the fruit incurring the penalty for eating it and then, when the woman offers him the same fruit he eats it knowing that he will incur the penalty for doing the same?

Or, is it that Adam/man in an attempt to dethrone Eve/woman deceives her into eating and while he is gloating about becoming the solitary ruler of earth she slips him some fruit to bring him down also?

I believe Adam received twofold

consiquences for heeding to his wifes voice yet did not take any blame.

Even if this position is granted and we allow that Adam receives two-fold consequences we cannot argue that Eve/woman attempted to protect him by calling him a serpent.

And the curses are fairly specific. Adam/man now survives by the sweat of his brown. The serpent eats dust and crawls on his belly. We are aware that agriculture is a labour intensive practice even with technology to help increase crop yields so that particular curse lingers. What is it that we compare the eating dust and cawling on bellies to? How does that particular curse linger?

Like I said this is just so one will take a closer look.

And I am happy to take a closer look. I am not seeing anything remotely similar to what you are seeing and so I ask questions trying to determine if the reason why I do not see what you are seeing is that I am not looking at what you are looking at or I have failed to recognize what you are looking at. Which is me willing to look for something I have never seen before.

At this point in the conversation, it looks like the reason I have never seen it before is simply that it isn't there to be seen.

So, my questions ask you to look again to verify what it is that you think you see.

Not to convince you that this is true.

I get that. You have been very clear about owning your own notions. I appreciate that. You are also asking if we see the same things and standing beside you looking at the very same texts you are looking at all I can say, at the moment, is no. No, I don't see the same things you do when you look at these texts.

That doesn't mean that we cannot continue the discussion. It does mean that without some future agreement on some point we are not likely to see the same things in the texts we engage.

 

[Luce NDs]

And who covered whom in this rye game of words generated to protect the sheaves (the slip cover)! As one cannot speak of discussions between men and women in a book of God ... cause God was stunned by their activity as it got around to that. The story of the cave continues and we dig our selves deeper into the mystery of Ecclesia ... and where the first children erupted ... during evolutionary experiences of clustered cells? They gather in a dark, warm, wet spot ... that's Nell ...

Some say a well loch 'd myth about the pool we're in ... deeply muddled?

Could it have been the emotional incident?

 

[unsafe]

Bolt_upright said:
consiquences for heeding to his wifes voice yet did not take any blame.

unsafe says ----isn't that the truth and it applies to us today -----this shows division and not taking personal responsibility for our own bad decisions so we put the Blame on another ----Like people Blaming God or Satan for the bad decisions they make which can bring disaster or unwanted situations in their lives -----there is a big lesson to learn and take heed to in your statement above -----We humans hate to blame ourselves ---- we love to play the Blame Game -----

It also shows that we are a gullible lot and can and will take the bait of people who like to twist scripture and or put their own spin on what they see in the scriptures and God warns about listening to such as the people who are not familiar with scripture can be mislead ------

Anyone who has the Holy Spirit should prayerfully pray for the right meaning for them when they are reading God's Book ------The Holy Spirit will never tell anyone to preach or teach or say anything that goes against God's word or will ----Satan is a deceiver and a liar -----and can influence a mind to speak against the word ----he does this for a reason and people need to know what God's word really says for them so they can discern what is truth and what is not -----

unsafe says and posted definition
You say Bolt_upright that what your implying here is just a notion ---as you have said in post 63 above ----

What is a Notion -----definition from dictionary.com

a general understanding; vague or imperfect conception or idea of something:
a notion of how something should be done.
2.
an opinion, view, or belief:
That's his notion, not mine.
3.
conception or idea:
his notion of democracy.
4.
a fanciful or foolish idea; whim:


unsafe says
Now that Notion came from your thoughts Bolt -----So who's thoughts are they really is the question -----did you pray and get this notion this from the Holy Spirit ?--

It may seem innocent but is it really that is the question -----who is the source and what is the motive always comes into play ------we are in a spiritual war every minute of the day Bolt ----it is all about soul winning ----who will win your soul today ----Satan's words or God's words

We are to Tests every spirit according to scripture ------and #3 in this poster below we should take seriously and all Christians should adhere to it in my opinion ------

God's word says it is truth as it is written so who are we to question that ? Understanding of that word comes to us by way of the Holy Spirit not ourselves by any notion -----this is just my view -----

 

[Luce NDs]

If the holi spirit is personal ... should it be kept private?

 

[BetteTheRed]

we are in a spiritual war every minute of the day Bolt

@unsafe, it must be very tiring to be at war all the time. Makes me feel sad for you.

 

[Bolt_upright]

Sure is a lot of inserting stuff that is not there and ignoring what is there.

Was that Most high or most lie?

You are right though, inserting too much without scriptual backup.
Thanks for your feedback!

 

[Bolt_upright]

Thanks "EVERYONE" for all your words of logic and reasoning.
I am no doubt wrong about this "notion". It was interesting that people at least offered some feedback. Most would just scoff at the idea.

 

[unsafe]

BetteTheRed ----your quote ------it must be very tiring to be at war all the time. Makes me feel sad for you.

unsafe says
No need to feel sad for me BetteThe Red ------


I fight the Good Fight ------and Victory is the result ------

--------

 

[Luce NDs]

and Victory is the result ------

Success Christianity at the limits as Jesus is found in the tome ... an sense of enlightened shadows ... synecdoche? Resembles cluster phoqah ... those lesser demons ...

Back in the holei ...