Christianity and other religions

[unsafe]

jimkenney -----I don't expect you to agree to what I say -----but thanks for your acceptance for me posting my own words ----

 

[Mendalla]

You sound like the crowd in Isaiah, ch. 30, 'Speak to us smooth things, prophesy illusions.' IOW 'Don't upset my apple cart.'

But how is that different from a significant percentage of people in any church's pews? People are quite happy with the "comfort the afflicted" side of the equation moreso than the "afflict the comfortable" side. I saw a UU minister go down because the congregation didn't like her overall message and thrust of her ministry, which challenged the church in some serious ways (including calling it a church).

 

[unsafe]

Redbaron -----What I'm reading between the lines here is,

LOL ---and that is just what you always do ----read between the lines when you should be reading beyond the lines

 

[Redbaron]

Whatever. Enjoy the Kool Ade they give you.

 

[unsafe]

How can a Minister Preach and explain with confidence and assurance and experience to people in the pews --This ---the peace that Jesus talked about beyond all human understanding is real and is consistently there when the Minister hasn't experienced such peace himself -----and by telling the people that this peace is available without having it personally is being hypocritical----as they are making the people believe that they themselves have this peace --

The Minister can't truly convey the calmness and tranquil feeling on the inside when all hell breaks loose on the outside or when extremely bad situations come upon the doorstep if he or she has not experienced this great peace --which can only come from relying totally on God who is the only person who can give us this type of peace -----

There is a story in 2 Kings of that peace that surpasses all human understanding and the woman who could have truly preached on this Peace because she had the peace herself ----

Read all yourselves -----

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Kings 4:18-37 - English Standard Version

Elisha Raises the Shunammite's Son - When the child had grown, he went out one day to his father among the reapers. And he said to his father, “Oh, my head, my head!” The father said to his servant, “Carry him to his mother.” And when he had lifted him and brought him to his mother, the child...

www.biblegateway.com

2 Kings 4:18-37 ESV​

Elisha Raises the Shunammite's Son​

18 When the child had grown, he went out one day to his father among the reapers. 19 And he said to his father, “Oh, my head, my head!” The father said to his servant, “Carry him to his mother.”
20 And when he had lifted him and brought him to his mother, the child sat on her lap till noon, and then he died.


I say ----The normal reaction would be far from inner peace having this happen her son dying in her lap not knowing what happened to him ----but this lady had the Faith and Peace of God rooted and grounded in her inner Spirit and Her calm words were ------ALL Will Be Well ---as she trusted God and His servant to restore her son's life --she didn't pay attention to what her husband was saying about the Sabbath and noon ----She trusted God not man ---

verses
22 Then she called to her husband and said, “Send me one of the servants and one of the donkeys, that I may quickly go to the man of God and come back again.” 23 And he said, “Why will you go to him today? It is neither new moon nor Sabbath.” She said, “All is well.”

I say ----this is the real peace Jesus is ta;king about folks -----no situation not even death can move you from the peace of God -----which defies all human understanding ------

 

[Luce NDs]

And God was a brutal ideal who made everyone different so they could conflict enough to teach ... if you don't get it together you will self destruct!

Guess what's happening ... we're working on the destruction slope!

 

[Luce NDs]

How can a Minister Preach and explain with confidence and assurance and experience to people in the pews --This ---the peace that Jesus talked about beyond all human understanding is real and is consistently there when the Minister hasn't experienced such peace himself -----and by telling the people that this peace is available without having it personally is being hypocritical----as they are making the people believe that they themselves have this peace --

The Minister can't truly convey the calmness and tranquil feeling on the inside when all hell breaks loose on the outside or when extremely bad situations come upon the doorstep if he or she has not experienced this great peace --which can only come from relying totally on God who is the only person who can give us this type of peace -----

There is a story in 2 Kings of that peace that surpasses all human understanding and the woman who could have truly preached on this Peace because she had the peace herself ----

Read all yourselves -----

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Kings 4:18-37 - English Standard Version

Elisha Raises the Shunammite's Son - When the child had grown, he went out one day to his father among the reapers. And he said to his father, “Oh, my head, my head!” The father said to his servant, “Carry him to his mother.” And when he had lifted him and brought him to his mother, the child...

www.biblegateway.com

2 Kings 4:18-37 ESV​

Elisha Raises the Shunammite's Son​

18 When the child had grown, he went out one day to his father among the reapers. 19 And he said to his father, “Oh, my head, my head!” The father said to his servant, “Carry him to his mother.”
20 And when he had lifted him and brought him to his mother, the child sat on her lap till noon, and then he died.


I say ----The normal reaction would be far from inner peace having this happen her son dying in her lap not knowing what happened to him ----but this lady had the Faith and Peace of God rooted and grounded in her inner Spirit and Her calm words were ------ALL Will Be Well ---as she trusted God and His servant to restore her son's life --she didn't pay attention to what her husband was saying about the Sabbath and noon ----She trusted God not man ---

verses
22 Then she called to her husband and said, “Send me one of the servants and one of the donkeys, that I may quickly go to the man of God and come back again.” 23 And he said, “Why will you go to him today? It is neither new moon nor Sabbath.” She said, “All is well.”

I say ----this is the real peace Jesus is ta;king about folks -----no situation not even death can move you from the peace of God -----which defies all human understanding ------

"Beyond human understanding" ... imagine that (if one has the abstract part as portion of a broken psyche)! Cracks me up ...

 

[jimkenney12]

I have been through a variety of difficult and chaotic situations in which my faith provided that peace beyond understanding. My challenges included trying to explain this sense of self, the world, and the Holy Mystery in ways that make sense to others. It requires a gut level of trust and the ability to let go of barriers to that peace including the emotional need to feel in control and beliefs that are barriers to accepting the reality of creation as I experience it.

In difficult teaching and ministry settings, associates expressed appreciation for the calm and organization I brought to those situations. ORganization requires seeing the reality in a situation, the reality needed to succeed in that situation, and the work required to move from one to the other.

It also requires that the work of the Holy Mystery is unfolding even in events that seem contrary and in beliefs that seem wrong.

 

[unsafe]

Jimkenney12 -----on post 154 page 8 you said this ---and Quoted Jeremiah 31 verse 34 ---

You said ----Jeremiah 31:34 portrays God has having no interest in tracking what we did right or wrong. God's goal was having people live with love. Jesus declared the importance of that in his decision to risk or face death.

I say ----God the Father Showed His Love for His fallen Creation by sending His only Son to die for our sins and take upon Himself what we deserve ----Jesus Agape for His Father and obeying His Father's Will is why Jesus faced His death willingly ----Jesus said YOUR Will be done ---not My will be done ----

I say ---hear is a perfect example of one Preaching to their people that God's
goal is having people live with love --so lets hope that you jimkenney12 live with the right Love that God is talking about which has nothing to do with Human love that fails --- it is about Agape that doesn't fail ever --this loves the unlovely -----it is slow to anger and the anger it does show is righteous anger not unrighteous anger -------and it keeps no records of wrongs and it gives God the Glory for everything we have in our lives and our accomplishments ----Agape is a divine Love which comes from a personal relationship with God ---

I say
No where in scripture does God say that he is not interested in keeping a check on our wrong and right behaviour ----- Better read Isaiah 59:2

God keeps records of what we do according to scripture ----in Revelations it says and the BOOKS were Open and every everyone will give an account for what they did on earth ---and also will give an account for every idle word we spoke -----

God's true Goal is to have all His Creation accept His free gift of salvation and through accepting this God then will put a no track on your sins ------and your love for God is shown by receiving His Son and then you can love others the way God loves you ----- Agape God first ---then you can agape your neighbour ----

I say -------So This is your Scripture in more of a context which describes the new covenant which God is bringing into place which has protocol to get -----read all yourself --

Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 31 - New International Version

“At that time,” declares the LORD, “I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they will be my people.” This is what the LORD says: “The people who survive the sword will find favor in the wilderness; I will come to give rest to Israel.” The LORD appeared to us in the past, saying: “I...

www.biblegateway.com

Jeremiah 31 NIV​

31 “At that time,” declares the Lord, “I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they will be my people.”

31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to[d] them,[e]”
declares the Lord.

33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”


I say ---so you see that under the New Covenant ----which is the gospel of the Good News which is Salvation which is first for Israel only ---so this is not for all people in this scripture of Jeremiah ---it is for those who receive this New Covenant of Grace which is coming -----

So preaching that God doesn't keep track of the right and wrongs we do is taking the scripture out of context and making it say what We want it to say -----and then teaching that to the people in the pews ---- who are taking what is said as Gospel ----because they trust their pastor to be preaching the truth -----sad --but that is the way of the world and it is getting worse in my view -----

 

[Mystic]

Or perhaps Mark misunderstood it?

UCCans like you and Jim Kenney illustrate the typical UCCan ploy of ignoring Jesus' well established self-understanding to simplistically invent a progressive Jesus to suit their denominational agenda. They have no basis for challenging the authenticity of Mark 10:45, which of course derives compelling support from other well established sayings of Jesus.

Lame attempts to find common ground among religions and build a spirituality based on parallelomania is scorned by historians of religion because this ploy distorts the distinctiveness of each religion and betrays a superficial grasp of them. Indeed, this thread displays profound ignorance of the actual biblical basis for an irenic perspective on other religions, an ignorance betrayed by the frequent disdain here for proof-texting that is required to demonstrate competence. As Bible text critic, B. F. Wescott famously said, "The simple Gospel is not so simple as the simple would have you suppose." My Princeton philosophy professor put the Christian's task succinctly: "Our job is not to make the Gospel relevant to society, but to make society
relevant to the Gospel."































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ort























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[Redbaron]

UCCans like you and Jim Kenney illustrate the typical UCCan ploy of ignoring Jesus' well established self-understanding to simplistically invent a progressive Jesus to suit their denominational agenda. They have no basis for challenging the authenticity of Mark 10:45, which of course derives compelling support from other well established sayings of Jesus.

Lame attempts to find common ground among religions and build a spirituality based on parallelomania is scorned by historians of religion because this ploy distorts the distinctiveness of each religion and betrays a superficial grasp of them. Indeed, this thread displays profound ignorance of the actual biblical basis for an irenic perspective on other religions, an ignorance betrayed by the frequent disdain here for proof-texting that is required to demonstrate competence. As Bible text critic, B. F. Wescott famously said, "The simple Gospel is not so simple as the simple would have you suppose." My Princeton philosophy professor put the Christian's task succinctly: "Our job is not to make the Gospel relevant to society, but to make society
relevant to the Gospel."

With all due respect, your Princeton professor was mistaken. That approach to “evangelism” led to such things as rampant colonialism, robbery of land already occupied for thousands of years by others, and the Residential School system, among other historic evils. The way of “WE have the TRUTH! You poor blighters should just shut up and listen to us!” has produced much more of hell than heaven throughout history. The Gospel message is not as simplistic, nor as straightforward, as people like you and unsafe want it to be.

The approach taken in the opening post, that of finding common ground and points of contact, will be much more productive of peace, goodwill, and justice, as well as reconciliation and peaceful coexistence, than the enculturated stance you seem to have adopted. Frankly, it seems you have more in common with the ‘Patriotic’ Republican terrorists than with people like Paul the Apostle.

To paraphrase a phrase from the Gospels, Christianity was made for the world, and not the world for Christianity. There’s a huge gap between those two perspectives. And a huge difference in the ways of being in the world between them.

 

[unsafe]

jimkenney12 ---you said -----I have been through a variety of difficult and chaotic situations in which my faith provided that peace beyond understanding.

I say --- I don't think your Faith can provide that type of Peace----only Christ in you can give you that kind of peace ----and that peace that surpasses all human understanding doesn't just come and go in a variety of difficult and chaotic situations ---it is always present-----it is a peace that guards your heart and your thoughts in Christ Jesus -----Philippians 4 talks about this peace --

jimkenney12 ---you said ----In difficult teaching and ministry settings, associates expressed appreciation for the calm and organization I brought to those situations.

I say ----You use the words ---I brought to those situations ------are you puffing yourself up here ----if your a Christian God gets the Glory not us --- you don't mention the one who gave you the ability to bring that calmness -----one should be careful about using the pronoun I if they are a Christian ---ego can creep in very easy as ego likes to take God's credit ---- just saying

 

[Luce NDs]

With all due respect, your Princeton professor was mistaken. That approach to “evangelism” led to such things as rampant colonialism, robbery of land already occupied for thousands of years by others, and the Residential School system, among other historic evils. The way of “WE have the TRUTH! You poor blighters should just shut up and listen to us!” has produced much more of hell than heaven throughout history. The Gospel message is not as simplistic, nor as straightforward, as people like you and unsafe want it to be.

The approach taken in the opening post, that of finding common ground and points of contact, will be much more productive of peace, goodwill, and justice, as well as reconciliation and peaceful coexistence, than the enculturated stance you seem to have adopted. Frankly, it seems you have more in common with the ‘Patriotic’ Republican terrorists than with people like Paul the Apostle.

To paraphrase a phrase from the Gospels, Christianity was made for the world, and not the world for Christianity. There’s a huge gap between those two perspectives. And a huge difference in the ways of being in the world between them.

Sort of reminds me of that old adage that spoke of the conflict between simplicity/complexity and complexity/simplicity as a reflective switch ... indicating that folks should look at things both ways!

However a subjective foothold regarding the objective ... often inhibits the objective perspective!

 

[Mystic]

With all due respect, your Princeton professor was mistaken. That approach to “evangelism” led to such things as rampant colonialism, robbery of land already occupied for thousands of years by others, and the Residential School system, among other historic evils. The way of “WE have the TRUTH! You poor blighters should just shut up and listen to us!” has produced much more of hell than heaven throughout history. The Gospel message is not as simplistic, nor as straightforward, as people like you and unsafe want it to be.

LOL, your response sadly betrays your ignorance of what the spirituality of the Gospel actually entails--experientiall0y as well as doctrinally. So
you must resort to the desperate expedient of creating a false caricature that allows you to duck pointed criticism of your myopic failed
UCCan agenda. So are educated young people flocked to the UCCan as Covid begins to wane?

 

[Redbaron]

You and unsafe can LOL to your hearts' content. Your scorn will change nothing. Reality and truth will not bend to fit your limited perceptions.

By the way, are they flocking back to YOUR denomination?

 

[BetteTheRed]

It appears that the future of religion in general is uncertain. Check out this BBC article. I enjoyed it.

The Future of Religion

I'm mindful of the premise of American Gods. That all of the gods who have been worshipped in humanity's history still exist in the spiritual realm.

I don't see evidence, in history, in my personal spiritual journey, that suggests that there is ONE CORRECT version of ONE RELIGION. That strikes me, largely, as damned-fool-ism.

(And on a personal note, mystic and unsafe have persuaded me to train myself out of any use of the acronym "lol", as it's never laughing with you, always laughing at you.)

 

[Luce NDs]

It appears that the future of religion in general is uncertain. Check out this BBC article. I enjoyed it.

The Future of Religion

I'm mindful of the premise of American Gods. That all of the gods who have been worshipped in humanity's history still exist in the spiritual realm.

I don't see evidence, in history, in my personal spiritual journey, that suggests that there is ONE CORRECT version of ONE RELIGION. That strikes me, largely, as damned-fool-ism.

(And on a personal note, mystic and unsafe have persuaded me to train myself out of any use of the acronym "lol", as it's never laughing with you, always laughing at you.)

Religion seems so determinately stoic and autonomous (independent) given how God (everything beyond us) may change a number of things in our tomorrow! Thus I float as foam on the Papal See ...

 

[Mendalla]

I'm mindful of the premise of American Gods.

It comes up in Sandman to some degree, too. Gaiman loves mythology and it shows in his work time and time again.

By the way, in Gaiman media news, season 2 of Good Omens is under way (based on a planned sequel that he and Pratchett never got around to writing) as is Anansi Boys. And the National Theater's stage production of Ocean at the End of the Lane is now playing in the West End, hopefully hitting Broadway eventually.

 

[BetteTheRed]

Gaiman loves mythology and it shows in his work time and time again.

It's totally what draws me to him. Showing my age, my first reading (after picture books) was a large compilation of world mythology stories, for some reason, sorted by colour. The blue book of fairy stories, the yellow book of fairy stories, etc. There were probably at least 10, and I treasured those things, borrowing them over and over again when I was restricted to the children's section.

 

[Luce NDs]

Sandman ... a gritty director of dreams?