Christianity and other religions

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Luce NDs

Well-Known Member
One may miss many counterpoints if radically one sided ... thus Caduceus ... a variant or the great slick one!

In Hebrew the word JudyAn was about concern about power (especially of the temple) and the more genteel power was in the calming words ... Hebrew itself.

Some say Hebrew is a devilish tongue regarding it's satyr and ambiguity! May provide ambient light while in a dark place as where we are now because of wars of the world (as if folk don't know better).
 

Luce NDs

Well-Known Member
In Mark 12:33 Jesus himself says that the shema plus the golden rule (Love God as one, love neighbour as self) is more important than all sacrifices.

Maybe even shekinah (a temporal dwelling place as if it is all in your psyche ... a very mysterious thing to get into)? Should it be balanced ...
 

paradox3

Well-Known Member
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@unsafe
Psalm 51

The exact wording varies from translation to translation. Here's the NIV

"The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
A broken and contrite heart,
O God, you will not despise."
 

paradox3

Well-Known Member
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Interesting conversation. I was about to argue that atone and at-one don't mean the same thing.

Changed my mind after looking up the history of the word
 

unsafe

Well-Known Member
Rebaron ---your in the Old testament not the New Testament -----Jesus had not come yet and sin was only forgiven by the shedding of the blood of animals for a time -of 1 year----

this is the scripture you speak of psalms 51 :17 ERV

17 The sacrifice that God wants is a humble spirit.
God, you will not turn away someone who comes with a humble heart and is willing to obey you.[c]

I say
This is a Psalm of David ----who is pleading with God about the grievous sin he committed with Bathsheba ---so he is desperately saying here that the only sacrifice that God's wants from him is to show Him that his heart and spirit are in the right place and he realises what grievous sin he has committed so God will not despise him ---it is about David's guilt and repentance

Despise here in the Hebrew means this -----

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
despise, disdain, contemptible, think to scorn, vile person
A primitive root; to disesteem -- despise, disdain, contemn(-ptible), + think to scorn, vile person.

I say ------So this is not about the forgiveness of sins that get you into heaven ----this is about Repentance in a pleading form for the soul ------

this is the whole scripture

ERV​

To the director: A song of David written when Nathan the prophet came to him after David’s sin with Bathsheba.​

51 God, be merciful to me
because of your faithful love.
Because of your great compassion,
erase all the wrongs I have done.
2 Scrub away my guilt.
Wash me clean from my sin.
3 I know I have done wrong.
I remember that sin all the time.
4 I did what you said is wrong.
You are the one I have sinned against.
I say this so that people will know
that I am wrong and you are right.
What you decided is fair.
5 I was born to do wrong,
a sinner before I left my mother’s womb.
6 You want me to be completely loyal,
so put true wisdom deep inside of me.
7 Remove my sin and make me pure.[a]
Wash me until I am whiter than snow!
8 Let me hear sounds of joy and happiness again.
Let the bones you crushed be happy again.
9 Don’t look at my sins.
Erase them all.
10 God, create a pure heart in me,
and make my spirit strong again.
11 Don’t push me away
or take your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Your help made me so happy.
Give me that joy again.
Make my spirit strong and ready to obey you.
13 I will teach the guilty how you want them to live,
and the sinners will come back to you.
14 God, spare me from the punishment of death.[b]
My God, you are the one who saves me!
Let me sing about all the good things you do for me!
15 My Lord, I will open my mouth and sing your praises!
16 You don’t really want sacrifices,
or I would give them to you.
17 The sacrifice that God wants is a humble spirit.
God, you will not turn away someone who comes with a humble heart and is willing to obey you.[c]
18 God, please be good to Zion.
Rebuild the walls of Jerusalem.
19 Then you can enjoy the kind of sacrifices you want.[d]
You will receive whole burnt offerings,
and people will again offer bulls on your altar.
 

Redbaron

Pirate fan since the dark ages
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Paradox3 said "Hebrew Scripture." That is what I supplied.

Since the whole idea of 'blood atonement' is based on the sacrificial system drawn from the Hebrew Scriptures, the 2 psalms are relevant. Both passages I cited refer to God's preference for repentance than blood sacrifice.
 

unsafe

Well-Known Member
Redbaron ----and no where in scripture does it say repentance removes sin ------repentance relieves the the soul of the guilt of sin when we confess it to God and kept people in the Old Testament near to God -----it does not relieve the sin ----

David committed adultery and murder ------David deserved death -----and he knew it ----

Leviticus 24:17 ESV /​

“Whoever takes a human life shall surely be put to death.

i say -----There was no sacrifice that David could make for his actions of murder --death was at his door step ---except hope that God would see that he spirit was broken and his heart full of grief and sorrow for what he had done and spare him ----giving him another chance so to speak ----

KJV Dictionary Definition: contrite​

contrite​

CONTRITE, a. L., to break or bruise; to rub or wear. See Trite. Literally, worn or bruised. Hence, broken-hearted for sin; deeply affected with grief and sorrowe for having offended God; humble; penitent; as a contrite sinner.

A broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. Psalm 51.

contritely​

CONTRITELY, adv. In a contrite manner; with penitence.

contriteness​

CONTRITENESS, n. Deep sorrow and penitence for sin.
 

Redbaron

Pirate fan since the dark ages
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Already addressed above by several others.
This conversation has gone on long enough.
 

Waterfall

Well-Known Member
Waterfall ---you said -----One could also quote the Bible by saying God doesn't endorse sacrifice.

Well one should quote the verse then and lets see what it really says ----

God is the one who put the blood sacrifice in place in my Bible ----So lets see your scripture quote on God doesn't endorse sacrifice in your Bible
Mathew 9:13
Proverbs 21:13
Jeremiah 7:22-24 ( this is Gods command as the Israelites were leaving Egypt...to NOT set up a sacrificial system)
There are more...but you can google yourself I'm sure.
God hates sacrifice.
While your googling, maybe google
1.)Anselms Satisfaction Theory of Atonement. (Humanity owes a debt to God....which changed in the 12th century from God owing the debt to Satan in the Ransom Theory of the 3rd century)
2. The Moral Influence Theory of Atonement by Augustine ( which greatly influenced Western Christianity)
3.) The Ransom Theory from 3rd century Origen...also a great influence on western beliefs. (God owes a debt to Satan)
4.) Christus Victor....commonly held theory up until the 12th century by the historical church.
5.)The Penal Substitutionary Theory...which is basically Anselms Satisfaction Theory that was slightly modified by Calvin and Luther . Basically Jesus is punished in the place of sinners in order to satisfy the justice of God against sin. God can now forgive the sinner because Jesus was punished in his place.
6.) The Governmental Theory of Atonement, mainly held in Methodism.
7.) Then there is the Scapegoat theory which is a modern theory based on the philosophical theory of the scapegoat.

So as you can see....it probably may influence what you believe about the death and resurrection of Jesus, depending where and when you were taught in Christian history.

You say you hate religion but love God.... I think we owe it to ourselves to search for the truth about God and possibly why what we've learned about atonement doesn't necessarily line up with Gods grace....which always existed.
 

BetteTheRed

Resident Heretic
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There was no sacrifice that David could make for his actions of murder --death was at his door step

That makes no sense. David was the king. No-one was going to put him to death for murder. There was an inconvenient prophet lecturing him that he'd been a bad person. No Jewish judges were going to sentence their own king to death for something that might very well have been an accident unless you believe Nathan, the prophet (and remember that prophets are never recognized as prophets in their own time).
 

Luce NDs

Well-Known Member
Already addressed above by several others.
This conversation has gone on long enough.

In some cases ... no matter what the spirit or sol of the discussion ... there are those that go against the grain ... just to cause a storm-like activity in the pub!

Jesus spoke quietly to the occupants while the Roman soldiers did the normal thing ... looking for blood!

Draw blood on a bull and see how insanity erupts ... the idea behind Picaroons ... get the bull moving!

A wild story in the pub about the tax payers is something else ... often misread! The conservators want to kill the taxpayers so they can have their Job as sacrificed by the order of the temple mood ...

That's the Reub 'n ... if it bleeds somethings going to happen ... ink in the proper nodes!
 

unsafe

Well-Known Member
Waterfall ----in Matthew 9:13 ----Jesus is eating with tax collectors and the Pharisees are asking why He is doing that ------and He Quotes a passage from the Old Testament that the Pharisees will be familiar with to reprimand them ----He is not saying that He is against sacrifice ------

The Calling of Matthew​

9 As Jesus went on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector’s booth. “Follow me,” he told him, and Matthew got up and followed him.

10 While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew’s house, many tax collectors and sinners came and ate with him and his disciples. 11 When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

12 On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.

13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’[a] For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”



Barnes' Notes on the Bible
But go ye and learn ... - To reprove them, and to vindicate his own conduct, he appealed to a passage of Scripture with which they ought to have been acquainted: "I will have mercy, and not sacrifice," Hosea 6:6.

This is not a declaration on the part of God that he was opposed to "sacrifices" or "offerings for sin;" for he had appointed and commanded many, and had therefore expressed his approbation of them.


It is a Hebrew mode of speaking, and means, "I prefer mercy to sacrifice;" or, "I am more pleased with acts of benevolence and kindness than with a mere external compliance with the duties of religion." Mercy here means benevolence or kindness toward others.

"Sacrifices" were offerings made to God on account of sin, or as an expression of thanksgiving. They were commonly bloody offerings, or animals slain; signifying that the sinner offering them deserved to die himself, and pointing to the great sacrifice or offering which Christ was to make for the sins of the world. "Sacrifices" were the principal part of the worship of the Jews, and hence came to signify "external worship in general." This is the meaning of the word here. The sense in which our Saviour applies it is this: "You Pharisees are exceedingly tenacious of the "external" duties of religion; but God has declared that he prefers benevolence or mercy to those external duties. It is proper, therefore, that I should associate with sinners for the purpose of doing them good."
 

Mendalla

All I wish is to dream again
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It is meant as a satire of clickbait headlines, but this kind of fits here as a satire of how some people "shop" for a faith.

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