Christianity and other religions

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paradox3

Well-Known Member
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This showed up on FB the other day. I like it a lot. And it doesn't just apply to indigenous religions. Personally, and historically, I identify most with Christianity. But I don't 'get' dissing other religions as a way to get followers for yours. I imagine most of us, even the ministers, agree?
I think view of "many paths up the mountain" is fairly common in our denomination. Probably predominates on this site
 

Waterfall

Well-Known Member
Which is not the Calvinist view per my many exchanges with @revjohn on the subject. Their view is that Grace, being unmerited, requires no action by us to be effective. It is by definition efficacious. Universalism (in the classical Christian sense) would generally hold to that, too.

Not that I actually hold to a grace-based worldview myself, but it is the one thing I find that Christianity offers uniquely (going back to where this thread about Grace started). Most everything else it has can be found in other religions and philosophies.
Although Armenianism says it can be refused.
No wonder Christianity is all over the place...lol
 

unsafe

Well-Known Member
Christianity is man made ---therefore it is not THE TRUE RELIGION --in my view ----NO Religion is the true Religion ----as they are all man made -----and not from God -----

There is---- in my view----- a True Path ---A Way---to follow -- that was given by God to follow His Will for us -- ---God is of NO Religion ---God is all about having a personal relationship with Him by and through receiving His Son ---there is no Religion involved in that -----

God freely gives Common Grace to all His Human Creation --no Religion Involved ----Saving Grace comes by way of Saving Faith in Jesus Christ and what He did on the Cross ------No Religion involved -----
 

Redbaron

Pirate fan since the dark ages
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Which is not the Calvinist view per my many exchanges with @revjohn on the subject. Their view is that Grace, being unmerited, requires no action by us to be effective. It is by definition efficacious. Universalism (in the classical Christian sense) would generally hold to that, too.

Not that I actually hold to a grace-based worldview myself, but it is the one compelling idea I find that Christianity offers uniquely (going back to where this thread about Grace started) so it interests me. Most everything else it offers can be found in other religions and philosophies.
But not all the world is Calvinist... in another tradition (Arminianism), grace asks for a response. The more one responds to the grace already received, the more grace one receives. Grace in this framework is not irresistible, nor is it automatic. It calls for a faithful response.
 

Waterfall

Well-Known Member
But not all the world is Calvinist... in another tradition (Arminianism), grace asks for a response. The more one responds to the grace already received, the more grace one receives. Grace in this framework is not irresistible, nor is it automatic. It calls for a faithful response.
Sort of leaves atheists in limbo I like the grace that includes all.
 

unsafe

Well-Known Member
Any one who thinks that God chooses Salvation for some and disregards others is taking Scripture out of Context ---and wrongly dividing the word of God -----

God wants all people saved ---and that is what Scripture really says ------we have a choice to choose to accept God's Saving Grace or to reject it ----

-the Scripture clearly says --IF YOU Believe --this gives choice ---God sends no one to torment ---we choose torment all by ourselves by refusing to have Faith in Jesus who was sent to die and Save us -------

God's Grace makes things available to us that we don'r deserve ----Faith is the substance that bring it to reality ---So Faith is first needed to Bring Grace -----Saving Grace always comes by and through Saving Faith ----
 

Mendalla

Agnostic pan(en)theist gorilla
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Well, Calvinism seems to leave a lot more people there, too
On the other hand, at least God is the one making the decision. All too many branches of Christianity seem to think they have the inside track on it and I think that is, to misuse the term, scandalous in its own regard. Calvinism really emphasizes the sovereign power of The Divine over any human desires, such as seeing the adherents of that other religion burning in Hell.

On thinking more about Grace, I think it is the "unmerited" part that really stands out in Christianity which is maybe why I am less inclined towards Arminianism. Every theistic religion has had the idea that we can appease or influence their deity(ies) by our actions, whether through sacrifice or ritual or stomping their foes into the ground. We even see it in the early period of the Hebrew religion.

But the idea that God simply chose a selection of persons (or humanity as a whole in the case of universalism) to favour without those persons having to earn it is quite a shift and I cannot think of another religion that has that idea. Some schools of Buddhism kind of lean that way with notions about buddhas and boddhisatvas helping us to Enlightenment, but even there we have to make some kind of effort. They don't just rain enlightenment down on the chosen (or everyone).
 

Luce NDs

Well-Known Member
We all receive Grace continuously in our lives but we may not recognize it.

Is it that humans find it hard to accept the onus of the thing called grace ... that may only be an essence of whatever was former!

Sort of like that cli/clae trick of making a Jared item and that how we arrive here ... in pure tempest! It must be drawn out ...
 

unsafe

Well-Known Member
I say ------We all receive Common Grace which is universal -----

So what is involved in common grace -----We humans deserve nothing ---God in His Grace gives us the ability to open our eyes in the morning ---

God in His Grace puts restrains on the workings of our corrupt nature which in turn prevents us from carrying out the full potential that this depraved nature of ours is capable of -----

You can read the full chapter that i am posting ---yourselves ---I am just posting these scriptures

Cain murdered his brother ---God through His common grace protected him from the vengeance of others

Genesis 4:15 NIV
15 But the Lord said to him, “Not so; anyone who kills Cain will suffer vengeance seven times over.” Then the Lord put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him.
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Because of our Corrupt Nature we deserve God's wrath -------God in His common Grace Delays our Judgement ---

1 Peter 3:20 NIV

20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
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God in His Common Grace gives each of His Creation different gifts ----talents ---and grants us opportunists that we don't deserve ----He stimulates us to preform virtuous acts -----

2 Kings 10:30 NIV

30 The Lord said to Jehu, “Because you have done well in accomplishing what is right in my eyes and have done to the house of Ahab all I had in mind to do, your descendants will sit on the throne of Israel to the fourth generation.”
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God in His Common Grace allows His sun to shine on the evil and the good and He sends His rain on the righteous and unrighteous ----He graciously gives good gifts to both -----He makes no distinction in this case between them ----

Matthew 5 NIV

Love for Enemies​

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[i] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
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Common Grace is universal -----and this Grace works on the person's heart to try and Get them to come to repentance -----God keeps pulling on one's heart ----He never gives up on trying to get us to come back to Him and He does this through common Grace -----

This is how I see it -----
Saving Grace is different ---Jesus is Grace -----the scripture tells us that -----

John 1:16-18 ERV​

16 Yes, the Word was full of grace and truth, and from him we all received one blessing after another.[a] 17 That is, the law was given to us through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God. The only Son is the one who has shown us what God is like. He is himself God and is very close to the Father.

So I say ------we see here that we have to have Faith in Jesus Christ who is Grace ----So Saving Grace comes though our Saving Faith in Jesus Christ ---The Word became Flesh -----

Saving Faith involves Repentance ---Repentance has to the first step in the Salvation process --Repentance involves the mind and the will --------John the Baptise called out ----repent ---and he baptised in the name of Repentance ----preparing the way for their Salvation ---then we have to have Faith and complete trust in what Jesus who is our saving Grace did on the Cross which is to save us from sin and make us righteous -----and IF WE BELIEVE that then we are saved ----

And we have a choice to accept or reject this Grace offer ----The IF YOU verse 9 also brings on a Condition ---you have to confess your Faith by speaking and believe in your heart to be saved -----that is what the scripture says ----

Context
The Word Brings Salvation
…8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9 that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved.…
 

BetteTheRed

Resident Heretic
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OK, unsafe, but how do you feel about universal salvation? That's part of what this thread is about.

The opening post says that the least appealing part of Christianity is its determination to consign other people to hell. Your own theology seems to do a lot of that.

Question: what are you going to think when you get to heaven, and find me there?
 

revjohn

Well-Known Member
Which is not the Calvinist view per my many exchanges with @revjohn on the subject. Their view is that Grace, being unmerited, requires no action by us to be effective. It is by definition efficacious. Universalism (in the classical Christian sense) would generally hold to that, too.
In Calvinism, God does all of the liftings so Grace as unmerited favour is given to those who could not earn it no matter how much they longed/hoped for it or how hard they tried/worked for it. God's grace never fails to accomplish God's aim in gifting it.

Recognizing that metaphors are always incomplete. I give you a ticket to a hockey game and you show up without the ticket. Do you still get in? There are likely people at the gate that will say no, without the ticket you don't get in. Those people will always be overridden when the owner of the stadium saunters up and says, "let them in, it is my wish that they enter." While we like to think of heaven as being something protected against unworthy entrance all have sinned rendering none worthy and without grace, it is going to be decidedly empty. Grace puts your name on the list and so rather than needing some ticket that you protect and carry, your name is already on the list of those who will be admitted.

The emphasis, from Calvinism, is not on proving one's self to be worthy of admission because that cannot work. It is on proving one's self grateful and being transformed by the grace God has given.

Some get it right off the bat and they make changes right away. Others struggle and change takes a long time to become effective. None of that impacts upon Grace. It impacts upon our witness nothing else.

The notion that grace needs our assent automatically renders God impotent against our will because God would need our permission to save us. It leads to works righteousness and an inflated impression of the necessity of at least some minimal effort on our behalf to render the grace of God valid.

Why Christians aren't offended by that notion is beyond me.
 

Luce NDs

Well-Known Member
OK, unsafe, but how do you feel about universal salvation? That's part of what this thread is about.

The opening post says that the least appealing part of Christianity is its determination to consign other people to hell. Your own theology seems to do a lot of that.

Question: what are you going to think when you get to heaven, and find me there?

This is that vanishing point on the horizon when the neural system diminishes to nothing ... self-cognate? Yet my grandfather had alternate word(s) for nothing ...
 

Luce NDs

Well-Known Member
In Calvinism, God does all of the liftings so Grace as unmerited favour is given to those who could not earn it no matter how much they longed/hoped for it or how hard they tried/worked for it. God's grace never fails to accomplish God's aim in gifting it.

Recognizing that metaphors are always incomplete. I give you a ticket to a hockey game and you show up without the ticket. Do you still get in? There are likely people at the gate that will say no, without the ticket you don't get in. Those people will always be overridden when the owner of the stadium saunters up and says, "let them in, it is my wish that they enter." While we like to think of heaven as being something protected against unworthy entrance all have sinned rendering none worthy and without grace, it is going to be decidedly empty. Grace puts your name on the list and so rather than needing some ticket that you protect and carry, your name is already on the list of those who will be admitted.

The emphasis, from Calvinism, is not on proving one's self to be worthy of admission because that cannot work. It is on proving one's self grateful and being transformed by the grace God has given.

Some get it right off the bat and they make changes right away. Others struggle and change takes a long time to become effective. None of that impacts upon Grace. It impacts upon our witness nothing else.

The notion that grace needs our assent automatically renders God impotent against our will because God would need our permission to save us. It leads to works righteousness and an inflated impression of the necessity of at least some minimal effort on our behalf to render the grace of God valid.

Why Christians aren't offended by that notion is beyond me.

Other feel like Hobbs and leave it hobbled or leashed ... like the wiles and passions should be restrained ... otherwise one might get a sensation of unsafe or insecure ... it is all part of the vast unknown ... Jusaid is God? Some believe that a word form the Jew Cid ... fundamental word slip --- Freud!
 
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