Can You Be Rich and Be a Christian?

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Carolla

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@Kimmio - when I say "acquire", I'm simply saying that it is something that develops or occurs - not that it is sought after. Such as in 'acquired brain injury' which is a commonly accepted term - not a sought after circumstance/outcome, but one that does happen. Generational poverty and acquired poverty are quite different IMO, and in any literature I have read. And I agree - life is generally not a meritocracy - becoming less so as we see the post-war 'middle class' eroding.
 

Waterfall

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No he doesn't. He goes to wedding celebrations where money is being spent on the whole community. He is teaching people to share equally in that lesson. So if you have 10 shirts maybe 5 is enough. To do unto others as you would have done unto you.
"Rich and poor have this in common, the Lord is the Maker of them all" Proverbs 22:2

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were well off financially and Solomon was the richest king in the world at the time, as a gift from God.

Luke 8:3 tells us wealthy women supported Jesus' ministry

When Jesus died on the cross it was wealthy men that asked for his body and offered a burial place at their expense.

Timothy 9:6-10 Warns us of the temptations that money can bring, ruin and destruction.....so it's the LOVE OF MONEY that brings ruin, not money itself or having it.

We are told to share and give to others, whether we are poor or rich. Remember the story of the Widows mite?

I do see in scripture that those with money are admonished for not sharing, helping, or putting money before their faith and God.....but I also see that it is expected of the poor also.
 

Mendalla

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People don't acquire poverty.
No, but they can lose wealth and thereby become poor. It's often due to bad planning or decisions but can also be due to circumstances out of their control (health problems that force them to stop working but leave them with bills to pay, company going bankrupt). And, as Bette points out, rare individuals have given up their wealth and/or status.

Why do people need new expensive things when there's bountiful available for a fraction of the cost?
Because they have bought into the myth of the consumer society that wearing the latest and greatest and paying big bucks for it makes you a better person, or at least makes you look better. It's a myth that I largely have not bought into (and my wardrobe shows it). But I don't think that's about money, either. I dress for comfort, not ostentation, and a $10 t-shirt can be as comfortable as a $30 one.

Of course when people say don't judge the wealthy,
And no one here has said not to judge the wealthy, only not to judge them just for being wealthy. Judge them on how they acquire that wealth. Judge them for how they use that wealth. But simply being wealthy is really just a fact and doesn't tell you much out of context.

If it's just an excuse to make more than $100K or so you should drop your arguments.
Making $100K in 2020 hardly makes you wealthy. In some housing markets, it's enough to put a roof over your head and still save some money for the kids' educations and not much more. Just ask the kids who flock to San Francisco to earn $100K+ starting salaries in the Valley, only to discover that their housing eats up half of that. It's not poor, to be sure, but I would not call it wealthy.

And, in the end, it isn't income that determines wealth. There are people making $60K a year who have millions in savings because they played their cards right. There are people making $200K who are up their eyeballs in debt because they didn't. And there are people who don't make a penny in earned income but live high off the hog because of income from inheritances or trusts.

So I don't think judging people on income is fair. Let's judge them on how they live their lives and how they treat other people and the world, not what's in their bank account. It is possible to be rich and be a decent person. I know some of those. It is also possible to be a poor a**hole. I'll take the decent rich person over the poor a**hole (and the decent poor person over the rich a**hole) any day.
 

Luce NDs

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@Kimmio - when I say "acquire", I'm simply saying that it is something that develops or occurs - not that it is sought after. Such as in 'acquired brain injury' which is a commonly accepted term - not a sought after circumstance/outcome, but one that does happen. Generational poverty and acquired poverty are quite different IMO, and in any literature I have read. And I agree - life is generally not a meritocracy - becoming less so as we see the post-war 'middle class' eroding.
Can one acquire a white washed sol? vanilla sky syndrome ... a flash in the Roman brute's scene ... may appear as a sword in the heavens ...

Cleaver's Moon?
 

Luce NDs

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No, but they can lose wealth and thereby become poor. It's often due to bad planning or decisions but can also be due to circumstances out of their control (health problems that force them to stop working but leave them with bills to pay, company going bankrupt). And, as Bette points out, rare individuals have given up their wealth and/or status.



Because they have bought into the myth of the consumer society that wearing the latest and greatest and paying big bucks for it makes you a better person, or at least makes you look better. It's a myth that I largely have not bought into (and my wardrobe shows it). But I don't think that's about money, either. I dress for comfort, not ostentation, and a $10 t-shirt can be as comfortable as a $30 one.



And no one here has said not to judge the wealthy, only not to judge them just for being wealthy. Judge them on how they acquire that wealth. Judge them for how they use that wealth. But simply being wealthy is really just a fact and doesn't tell you much out of context.



Making $100K in 2020 hardly makes you wealthy. In some housing markets, it's enough to put a roof over your head and still save some money for the kids' educations and not much more. Just ask the kids who flock to San Francisco to earn $100K+ starting salaries in the Valley, only to discover that their housing eats up half of that. It's not poor, to be sure, but I would not call it wealthy.

And, in the end, it isn't income that determines wealth. There are people making $60K a year who have millions in savings because they played their cards right. There are people making $200K who are up their eyeballs in debt because they didn't. And there are people who don't make a penny in earned income but live high off the hog because of income from inheritances or trusts.

So I don't think judging people on income is fair. Let's judge them on how they live their lives and how they treat other people and the world, not what's in their bank account. It is possible to be rich and be a decent person. I know some of those. It is also possible to be a poor a**hole. I'll take the decent rich person over the poor a**hole (and the decent poor person over the rich a**hole) any day.
All is relative and as in alchemy the damn things could explode ... must be the demos being confined in the flask ... may be reflected in the tale of the Browned Jug ... tis Jaerd! Bliss is best ... or so we are told!
 
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No, but they can lose wealth and thereby become poor. It's often due to bad planning or decisions but can also be due to circumstances out of their control (health problems that force them to stop working but leave them with bills to pay, company going bankrupt). And, as Bette points out, rare individuals have given up their wealth and/or status.



Because they have bought into the myth of the consumer society that wearing the latest and greatest and paying big bucks for it makes you a better person, or at least makes you look better. It's a myth that I largely have not bought into (and my wardrobe shows it). But I don't think that's about money, either. I dress for comfort, not ostentation, and a $10 t-shirt can be as comfortable as a $30 one.



And no one here has said not to judge the wealthy, only not to judge them just for being wealthy. Judge them on how they acquire that wealth. Judge them for how they use that wealth. But simply being wealthy is really just a fact and doesn't tell you much out of context.



Making $100K in 2020 hardly makes you wealthy. In some housing markets, it's enough to put a roof over your head and still save some money for the kids' educations and not much more. Just ask the kids who flock to San Francisco to earn $100K+ starting salaries in the Valley, only to discover that their housing eats up half of that. It's not poor, to be sure, but I would not call it wealthy.

And, in the end, it isn't income that determines wealth. There are people making $60K a year who have millions in savings because they played their cards right. There are people making $200K who are up their eyeballs in debt because they didn't. And there are people who don't make a penny in earned income but live high off the hog because of income from inheritances or trusts.

So I don't think judging people on income is fair. Let's judge them on how they live their lives and how they treat other people and the world, not what's in their bank account. It is possible to be rich and be a decent person. I know some of those. It is also possible to be a poor a**hole. I'll take the decent rich person over the poor a**hole (and the decent poor person over the rich a**hole) any day.
What else does one need but a roof over their head and free education (for their kids - you do realize most kids don't inherent education funds? That's rich.
 

ChemGal

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The problem with Justin and wealth is that we've never really seen any sign of him doing anything socially useful with it. We see a guy who could easily have done a lot of things with his life but has kind of slouched along from degree to degree and job to job and somehow convinced a party and nation that made him eligible to lead. He would not be able to live like that, or probably be PM, without that inherited wealth. Where are the lavish charitable donations? Where is the foundation supporting important work like eliminating malaria or supporting educational causes or whatever? Where has he ever worked to earn that wealth or show leadership?

All he has ever shown us is a playboy millionaire turned political leader. Frankly, Morneau should be living in Rideau Cottage, not Justin. He has inherited wealth, too, but he also worked for his family's businesses and built experience as a leader in the business world. But he lacks the charisma to be a 21st century leader and that, plus having money to throw around, seems to be more important than actual competence or experience as a leader.

Back on topic (this post feels like it should over in the WE thread but whatever), the problem is not, then, Justin's wealth. Bill Morneau is likely richer but would probably make a better PM. And I am sure that Chrystia Freeland, who really should be leading that party, isn't exactly living on Skid Row. Wealth should not invalidate one as a leader anymore than it should invalidate one as a Christian. But it should not be what makes one a leader, either. Showing leadership and competence should make one a leader and I'm not seeing that here.

In the Christian context, think back to the days when a rich person could make big donations to the church and get a special pew and name on a plaque and stuff (maybe it still happens). They probably even had a say in choosing the minister whether they were on the board and/or search committee or not. Were those rich members better Christians for throwing that wealth at the church? Or was it just another way of showing off their wealth? Why not make those donations quietly and sit further back, which is more in keeping with what Jesus taught about giving?
And the best the Conservatives came up with a while ago was talking about his hair :cautious:
 

ChemGal

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What else does one need but a roof over their head and free education (for their kids - you do realize most kids don't inherent education funds? That's rich.
If needs could be met simply with housing and education solving a lot of societal problems would be fairly easy.
 

Mendalla

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What else does one need but a roof over their head and free education
Oh get real. You need food. You need transportation (even transit and bikes cost money). Even entertainment is a necessity up to a point. In this day and age you need Internet and a computer at minimum for that education (most university programs are online for the foreseeable future and even public school programs are going to be partly online)

(for their kids - you do realize most kids don't inherent education funds? That's rich.
First off, some kids do. Do you think Justin Trudeau worked to pay for his degrees or had them paid out of his trust fund? I think you know the answer. But those are, as you suggest, extreme cases. Most families, like mine, save for post-secondary education.

But more to the point, I never said anything about kids inheriting money for their education and I am not sure where this remark comes from. In fact, I am in favour of universal free education up to the community college level. Not university, though. That's expensive and unnecessary for a lot of very good jobs. My staff are all community college grads and probably make as much as their university counterparts would in a similar position.

The fact is, the few fields that truly require a university education, like law, engineering and medicine, are going to make enough to pay for it. People who take nonsense degrees like "Media, Information, and Technoculture" (yes, that's a real degree) shouldn't be getting my money to pay for it. Most of them end up being perpetual students running from degree to degree without ever considering if any of those degrees will earn them a living or allow them to contribute meaningfully to society. I am even good with things like English and philosophy as long as the people recognize that something like teacher's college or law school will have to follow. But there are a lot of "modern" degrees out there that contribute nothing but wave after wave of dead trees to the world (though online journals are hopefully stemming that tide).
 
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ChemGal

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Oh get real. You need food. You need transportation (even transit and bikes cost money). Even entertainment is a necessity up to a point. In this day and age you need Internet and a computer at minimum for that education (most university programs are online for the foreseeable future and even public school programs are going to be partly online)
Yep, there are lots of seniors with housing & education who are struggling. Not that they are the only ones, but an easy way to highlight difficulties.
Food prices have gone up quite a bit, medications cost. And we see with the LTC facilities lately that just housing, food & meds doesn't equate to an acceptable standard for quality of life either. Hinshaw has relaxed restrictions due to health issues, not due to reduced risk of COVID.
 

Luce NDs

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I just read recently....from an msn news feed or something, that the "rich" do not feel rich. It's highly subjective. You get used to having money and still have anxiety about having enough. Hard to switch to a mindset that feels gratitude. That's the eye of the needle IMO
Monis as a lady is said to dull some of the senses ... complacency for the (w)hole thing sets in ... omega'd?
 

Luce NDs

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Oh get real. You need food. You need transportation (even transit and bikes cost money). Even entertainment is a necessity up to a point. In this day and age you need Internet and a computer at minimum for that education (most university programs are online for the foreseeable future and even public school programs are going to be partly online)



First off, some kids do. Do you think Justin Trudeau worked to pay for his degrees or had them paid out of his trust fund? I think you know the answer. But those are, as you suggest, extreme cases. Most families, like mine, save for post-secondary education.

But more to the point, I never said anything about kids inheriting money for their education and I am not sure where this remark comes from. In fact, I am in favour of universal free education up to the community college level. Not university, though. That's expensive and unnecessary for a lot of very good jobs. My staff are all community college grads and probably make as much as their university counterparts would in a similar position.

The fact is, the few fields that truly require a university education, like law, engineering and medicine, are going to make enough to pay for it. People who take nonsense degrees like "Media, Information, and Technoculture" (yes, that's a real degree) shouldn't be getting my money to pay for it. Most of them end up being perpetual students running from degree to degree without ever considering if any of those degrees will earn them a living or allow them to contribute meaningfully to society. I am even good with things like English and philosophy as long as the people recognize that something like teacher's college or law school will have to follow. But there are a lot of "modern" degrees out there that contribute nothing but wave after wave of dead trees to the world (though online journals are hopefully stemming that tide).
Some powers believe thoroughly in subsistence orders ... so they can extract Moors ... thus the breath leaves me!
 
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Yep, there are lots of seniors with housing & education who are struggling. Not that they are the only ones, but an easy way to highlight difficulties.
Food prices have gone up quite a bit, medications cost. And we see with the LTC facilities lately that just housing, food & meds doesn't equate to an acceptable standard for quality of life either. Hinshaw has relaxed restrictions due to health issues, not due to reduced risk of COVID.
I know food prices are high. Everything costs a lot. You think I don't. If they're high on a 100k salary then what about 18k ?Mendalla you said housing and education. I took that to mean basics. On 100k yes the basics are possible - to live well, even. The poor get blamed for being poor. The rich have a choice to live well and not be so excessively comfortable and they don't choose it most of the time.
 

unsafe

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From google

Does the Bible talk about money more than anything else?
Money and possessions are the second most referenced topic in the Biblemoney is mentioned more than 800 times –

I say-------Jesus knew just how dangerous money was in this wicked world and a lot of his parables are on money---money is a hook Satan uses to keep people in bondage ----big debt is money bondage and many are shackled to it -----we desire money and money is essential to live in this world and Satan plays on our desires to want more -when our money controls us we are in big trouble -----

From google
People also ask
How many parables in the Bible are about money?

Sure enough, after doing a bit of research on this subject as well, I discovered that the pastor was right: Jesus talked more about money than he did Heaven and Hell combined. Eleven of the 39 parables He tells are about finances.

So to answer the OP Question ------Can You Be Rich and Be a Christian?

For starters--- I say --well anyone can call themselves a Christian ---calling one's self a Christian today means they may not be a Holy Spirit Filled person so they just hold the worldly title of Christian ------which means they still have that Sin Nature that we are all born with according to scripture ------so their flesh appetite is still in place --


1 John 2:15-17 ESV
Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride in possessions—is not from the Father but is from the world. And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever.

I say ----So yes one can call themselves a Christian and have unrighteous wealth ---- and enjoy their wealth and great lives here on earth in an unjust manner ------God actually address this in his word in Luke 16 ---Parable of the unjust steward ---

Read all here ----
-https://biblehub.com/sermons/auth/dods/the_mammon_of_unrighteousness.htm

The Mammon of Unrighteousness
Marcus Dods, D. D.
Luke 16:9
And I say to you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when you fail…​
"Mammon" is just the Syrian word for money, and it is called "unrighteous " or "unjust" because those to whom our Lord was speaking had made their money by injustice. It was as little their own as the unjust steward's was. The steward was unjust because he had not regarded himself as a steward; and in so far as we have forgotten this fundamental circumstance, we also are unjust. We may not have consciously wronged any man or defrauded any; but if we have omitted to consider what was due to God and man, the likelihood is we have more money than we have a right to.



I say ----Now Can You be rich and be a Holy Spirit filled Christian -------Well that depends on how much we trust God and obey His word as to the right use of his money -----God has much to say about how His Children are to use His money ------


Deuteronomy 8:11-18 (NET Bible)
Exhortation to Remember That Blessing Comes from God

11 Be sure you do not forget the Lord your God by not keeping his commandments, ordinances, and statutes that I am giving you today.
12 When you eat your fill, when you build and occupy good houses,

13 when your cattle and flocks increase, when you have plenty of silver and gold, and when you have abundance of everything,


14 be sure[a] you do not feel self-important and forget the Lord your God who brought you from the land of Egypt, the place of slavery,

15 and who brought you through the great, fearful wilderness of venomous serpents[b] and scorpions, an arid place with no water. He made water flow[c] from a flint rock and

16 fed you in the wilderness with manna (which your ancestors had never before known) so that he might by humbling you test you[d] and eventually bring good to you.

17 Be careful[e] not to say, “My own ability and skill[f] have gotten me this wealth.”

18 You must remember the Lord your God, for he is the one who gives ability to get wealth;


I Say ----So God is the source of a True Christians wealth -----and we are not to hoard wealth ---and He tells us what we are ti do with it ----these are only a couple of His promises ----there are more scriptures on this

Malachi 3:10 ESV
Bring the full tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. And thereby put me to the test, says the Lord of hosts, if I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour down for you a blessing until there is no more need.

I say -------We are to Trust that God will do as He says here -----trust His word and put it to the Test

Luke 6:38 ESV
Give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you.”

I Say -----We can't out give God ------We need to trust that God is faithful to His word -----It says it will be given ------this is a promise people -----this says you will never run out ---with the measure you use it will be measured back to you.”


So God has no problem with His directing and giving His Children -----true Christians --- the ability to have wealth as long as it is use it ti give Him the Glory and to prosper His Kingdom -----

Gods Blessings that He bestows on His people are to be shared with others ------
 

ChemGal

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I know food prices are high. Everything costs a lot. You think I don't. If they're high on a 100k salary then what about 18k ?Mendalla you said housing and education. I took that to mean basics. On 100k yes the basics are possible - to live well, even. The poor get blamed for being poor. The rich have a choice to live well and not be so excessively comfortable and they don't choose it most of the time.
Are they?
 

jimkenney12

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Too much theology and philosophy. In the real world, some wealthy people acquire the wealth out of their passion for creating and delivering a service or product or, like Warren Buffet, love playing the game of acquiring wealth, and the wealth is an incidental benefit which they enjoy but do not treasure in the way they treasure their ability to create or play. Most wealthy people inherit wealth with an included sense of self-entitlement or become wealthy because becoming wealthy was their goal, their god.

Most people become more desirous of wealth as they increase their wealth, increasingly becoming a slave to their wealth. Such people have no immediate interest in the kingdom/kindom life which focuses on the well-being of everyone. What one has is not an indicator of a person's willingness to follow Jesus. How one is with self and others and what one does are the indicators. Jesus is reported as saying the equivalent that "They will be judged by the fruits of their actions."

A focus on wealth or one's lack of wealth are both distracters from following the way.
 

ninjafaery

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Anecdotally, (and I invite anyone with further information to jump in), I read something interesting. The idea of a camel going through a needle is absurd. Another read makes far more sense...it refers to a camel hair thread that is very bulky, and would be very difficult to thread through the eye of a needle.
Not so awful, eh?
 
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