Are we worthy? Of what?

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Jaebius

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Pinga said:
I had one friend ping me, clearly crashing . she was safe, but raised my concerns late Saturday night. The one thing interesting was our chat was there for her to review & reflect on late Sunday , after she was sober and had come out of the dark place.
Then, another friend pinged me Sunday night to say that she had discovered her sister's body that morningafter her sister had committed suicide.

I am aware of the hurt that runs through some people's lives and am aware of how it can be amplified during times of stress, whether it be fear of trump's actions, or christmas family joys/loss.

Take care of each other, folks. Stay alert on wondercafe and in real life. remind folks that they are loved and are worthy.
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Worthy of what exactly?
 
Mendalla said:
Respect. Care. Love. Being treated as an equal. You name it.
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In what possible way do you imagine that we're all worthy of respect, care and love? In my theology, we are all broken people who have done shameful, offensive things against God. All we're actually equally entitled to is non-existence. That's what makes God's love for us so utterly wonderful - that we haven't earned it, that we're not worthy of love, and yet he chooses to give it to us anyway. Following, we are not worthy of the love of other humans either. So, what a great gift we give when we choose to love others.
 
Jae said:
In what possible way do you imagine that we're all worthy of respect, care and love? In my theology, we are all broken people who have done shameful, offensive things against God. All we're actually equally entitled to is non-existence. That's what makes God's love for us so utterly wonderful - that we haven't earned it, that we're not worthy of love, and yet he chooses to give it to us anyway. Following, we are not worthy of the love of other humans either. So, what a great gift we give when we choose to love others.
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Right, but that's your theology. I'm not bound by what you believe nor do I have to accept total depravity as fact or view other people through that lens. In fact, my faith's first principle, as I've told you many times, is "respect for the inherent worth and dignity of every person". I believe we are fallible beings, but that does not, in my understanding, make us unworthy or broken.
 
Mendalla said:
Right, but that's your theology. I'm not bound by what you believe nor do I have to accept total depravity as fact or view other people through that lens. In fact, my faith's first principle, as I've told you many times, is "respect for the inherent worth and dignity of every person". I believe we are fallible beings, but that does not, in my understanding, make us unworthy or broken.
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What do you believe that, "respect for the inherent worth and dignity of every person" is based on? What or whom, iyho, gives humans that worth and dignity?
 
Jae said:
What do you believe that, "respect for the inherent worth and dignity of every person" is based on? What or whom, iyho, gives humans that worth and dignity?
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I think it actually depends on the UU. For many of us (the religious and secular humanist UUs in particular), being human is enough. If I feel I deserve respect, then I extend that respect to other persons. "Do unto others...," as a certain Messiah put it:). Some would go further and argue "person" should be replaced with "being" but that opens up a raft of other debates and discussions. But, of course, debating and discussing is pretty much worship for some UUs.:rolleyes::D

In my personal theology, it is bit more complicated. I look at our seventh principle, "respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part", as the root of my understanding of existence. We are a part of something bigger than ourselves and that something is a part of us. The atoms in my body came from the same place as the atoms in every other body.

If we are to truly respect that greater existence, that interdependent web, we have to respect the other parts of that web. Being part of that greater whole is what gives us our inherent worth and dignity. Yes, that means I think our principles are out of order theologically, but that's because of the history. The seventh was an amendment made in the eighties (?) rather than part of the original set.

It also means, of course, I am open to having that debate about every being having inherent worth and dignity.
 
Actually, belief in a doctrine of total depravity combined with the belief that "God so loved the world" surely makes it incumbent upon us to love the world. Surely Jesus' command to love one another, to love neighbour and to love even our enemies suggests that Jesus sees every individual as worthy of that love, even if they have not earned it. The doctrine of total depravity does not say that we are not worthy of care, respect or love. It says that we have not earned such things and are incapable of earning such things, but that God has given them to us anyway. God thus sees us as worthy to receive such things in spite of our "total depravity." If we were not "worthy" to receive such things, God would not give us such things.

Incidentally, when we love others, we are not giving them a gift. Suggesting that our love for others is a gift suggests that we have the right to give or withhold love as we see fit. We don't. Love is a command of Jesus. And, yes, love can be commanded. It is an action we can choose, not simply an emotion we may or may not feel.
 
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Thanking you for your insight Mendalla and revsdd. Beyond that, I'm opting not to participate in this thread. I don't dance to Tabitha's tune.
 
@Jae. We are all people of worth in the eye of God. Some of us forget it. Some of us think we

have no worth and uglier still some of us feel that others have no worth.

Tabitha stands tall as a woman of worth.

You do too, Jae, but you would rather bash other people than love yourself.

A church that is close to me for many reasons uses this phrase

after baptisms ."You are wonderful, You are marvelous,

You are one of a kind, A child of God, and God loves you lots".

Jae that means you.
 
Jae said:
In what possible way do you imagine that we're all worthy of respect, care and love? In my theology, we are all broken people who have done shameful, offensive things against God. All we're actually equally entitled to is non-existence. That's what makes God's love for us so utterly wonderful - that we haven't earned it, that we're not worthy of love, and yet he chooses to give it to us anyway. Following, we are not worthy of the love of other humans either. So, what a great gift we give when we choose to love others.
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This, in a nutshell, is why Christian theology (or at least this very popular interpretation) is poisonous. Anything that would diminish a person first, with the goal of converting them into the fold before building them up only once within it, is a cult.
 
Jae said:
Thanking you for your insight Mendalla and revsdd. Beyond that, I'm opting not to participate in this thread. I don't dance to Tabitha's tune.
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Thus the outside view is denied ... and the outlanders are beyond us as carriers of data ... intellect? Hoers antes ...
 
Are we worthy? Absolutely. Worthy of both respect and love. We are, each and every one of us, a child of the most high, a potential son of God, one like unto the Christ. It is the Christ within us that is worthy and something we should never lose sight of. Our spiritual nature is our heritage and no theology can ever take that away. Life itself is a spiritual adventure, it should be enjoyed with detachment. The only depravity we should ever really experience is the one where we think of our personal selves as being more important and outshining that of our Spiritual Self, the Christ-Self within. It's all about what we focus on in life.
 
And some people are not spiritual. Failing to identify with any form of spirituality is not a bad thing. It just is. It does not preclude anyone from enjoying life.
 
chansen said:
And some people are not spiritual. Failing to identify with any form of spirituality is not a bad thing. It just is. It does not preclude anyone from enjoying life.
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Yup, I agree, you don't have to be spiritual to enjoy life. If we are sincere and honest and detached from selfishness then we're working with nature and not against it.
 
Jae said:
Thanking you for your insight Mendalla and revsdd. Beyond that, I'm opting not to participate in this thread. I don't dance to Tabitha's tune.
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You aren't. You are dancing to mine. I likely would have moved the discussion even without her prompting. It certainly did not belong in Room for All. Feel free to not participate but don't try to pin it on her. She made a good call asking it be moved.
 
Worthy????????

Why did the great powers ... hosts of the imaginary state ... isolate people in a place like this in deep space?
 
Jae said:
In what possible way do you imagine that we're all worthy of respect, care and love? In my theology, we are all broken people who have done shameful, offensive things against God. All we're actually equally entitled to is non-existence.
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This theology has caused so many problems. I get to see the collateral damage of this type of thinking every day. It is sad that a faith is grounded in this type of belief. It is shaming and demoralizing to people, partly because as humans we sometimes can't see past the negative to the positive. We only hear that we are unlovable, shameful and should not exist. Leaders have used this type of thinking to actively shame people who do not act according to what the leaders believe to be appropriate behaviours. When we are this kind of shame based, we tend to hurt others. Hurt people hurt people.Sadly, often people can't see past that shaming to the message of love. Maybe they are not allowed to see past the shaming to the love.

That's what makes God's love for us so utterly wonderful - that we haven't earned it, that we're not worthy of love, and yet he chooses to give it to us anyway. Following, we are not worthy of the love of other humans either. So, what a great gift we give when we choose to love others.
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It is sad that a message of unconditional love seems too often to be given with conditions.
 
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