1 Corinthians (various passages) - Paul is not a happy apostle

[paradox3]

Yes agreeing about the scheduling of these things. But I have seen churches plan evening events and realize every single person who actually showed up was retired and could have come during the day.

Groups in the evening exclude everyone who is not comfortable driving after dark.

Some churches are having success doing things by Zoom.

I have also seen events repeated to reach the different demographics in a congregation

 

[jimkenney12]

I like asynchronous events or discussions like those we have on WonderCafe2 and DRCC's prerecorded worship services.

 

[paradox3]

@Mendalla
I think people are just sensitive about their level of biblical literacy. I don't think if they shy away from bible study it means anything is being done wrong.

 

[Mendalla]

Some churches are having success doing things by Zoom.

Yeah, one of @BetteTheRed's groups still meets that way, I think. I would be willing to give it a try.

I like asynchronous events or discussions like those we have on WonderCafe2 and DRCC's prerecorded worship services.

Those have their place, but sometimes being face to face and actually talking have a place, too, I think.

 

[Mystic]

The divisive role of the public exercise of "spiritual gifts," or rather "charisms" (gracelets), chiefly arises from a disconcerting fact: In my lifelong observation "prophecy," "tongues," and "interpretations of tongues" are often counterfeit, no more than an expression of wishful thinking to demonstrate one's intimate access to the will of the Holy Spirit for a particular congregation. Counterfeit spirituality breeds a holier than thou attitude that observers can sense. Paul begins diplomatically with the Corinthians by praising their prior experience with spiritual gifts: "You have been enriched in Him in speech and knowledge of every kind...you are not lacking in any spiritual gift (1 Corinthians 1:5, 7)." But their social elitism has prevented the Spirit from continuing to inspire those gifts. So they simultaneously speak in tongues with no regard for how this offends visiting outsiders. Paul makes it clear that when the gifts of prophecy and interpretation in tongues are authentic, the Spirit inspiring this speech will convince the outsider that God is really speaking through them (14:24-25).

When I was a boy (age 12-14), I hungered deeply for authentic messages of prophecy and interpretation of tongues that often erupted in our Communion services. When these messages began, I would immediately be so deeply moved that I was in tears as soon as the speaker started. But more often, I felt myself freeze as if confronted by a cobra the moment the message began. I look back on those experiences and now realize that God had given this young boy the gift of discernment. A worse problem was that my negative reaction was most often triggered by a pastor or denominational leader who exercised those gifts and that pattern disillusioned me with the spirituality of our leaders. Paul makes it clear that all such exercise of spiritual gifts needs to be subject to spiritual discernment and that could be humiliating for the poor sap whom the pastor told before 1,500 people, "Sir, you are out of order!" But no one dared exercise such discernment on church leaders. In my view, it is precisely their invulnerability to censure that led to their forfeiture of authentic spiritual gifts.

Consider what Paul says typically happens when the gift of prophecy is authentic:
"But if all prophesy, an unbeliever or outsider who enters is reproved by all and called to account by all. After the secrets of his unbelieving heart are disclosed, he will bow down before God and worship Him, declaring, "God is really among you (14:24-25).""

John Wimber shared this story about his inspiration to exercise the gift of prophecy on an flight to Europe. He felt prompted to sit next to a stranger and say, "You're on your way to sleep with a woman without your wife's knowledge. Know that God will judge you for this!" The man turned pale and said, "Who told you this? Who are you anyway?" And the prophetic word sank deep in his psyche. You'd better be actually inspired by the Spirit to take the risk of confronting others like that!

 

[jimkenney12]

The live discussions/meetings and face to face meeings are important aw well. The challenge is providing a variety of options for people to choose. The more people willing to exercise their gifts of leadership and other gifts, the more ways for people to connect and grow socially and spiritually. One board member of a church I am supervising is the primary caregiver for a spouse and is unable to attend most in person gatherings. Wtaching the live zervices, participating in on0line meetings, and sharing gems from research through email are options that person uses.

 

[Luce NDs]

Just recall that you can satisfy some of the phoque all the time, all the folk some of the time ... and often cannot satisfy the other thurd whatsoever as they are divisive portion ...

Thus nothing is even considered as rational ... it is just a bubble in our indetermonate psyche ... a non-thing said to be denied probabiity. Thus we cannot think under any rational situations.

Irrationality reigns ... as loss and laws ... LUCY goos ...? That's freedom unless you sense some onus (it is a given that is much ignored) because of extreme desire to ov*id responsibility as it is accounted for ... and the massive dropping of vow elles ... especially in consonal linguistics ... hard voices?

 

[paradox3]

@jimkenney12
Good point about people being willing to exercise their gifts of leadership, etc.
Paul makes a convincing argument that such gifts are given for the benefit of the community.

 

[paradox3]

@Mystic
Not surprising that such gifts are sometimes bogus. Speaking in tongues in particular seems to lend itself to fraud.

However I think the subconscious plays a big role in these things. An individual might sincerely believe they are speaking in tongues when they are just chanting or doing something similar

 

[Mendalla]

However I think the subconscious plays a big role in these things. An individual might sincerely believe they are speaking in tongues when they are just chanting or doing something similar

Of course, the counter-argument there is that maybe the subconscious is how The Spirit reaches out (in?) to us. After all, if God can use dreams to communicate, subconscious responses would be on the table, too, wouldn't they? Yes, if one takes a hard, scientific approach, then it's "just" subconscious responses. But if you are conceding faith in a powerful, immanent deity to start with, then maybe there's more to those subconscious responses.

 

[Luce NDs]

@Mystic
Not surprising that such gifts are sometimes bogus. Speaking in tongues in particular seems to lend itself to fraud.

However I think the subconscious plays a big role in these things. An individual might sincerely believe they are speaking in tongues when they are just chanting or doing something similar

Then as opposing counterpart ... if people are commanded not to know ... can they express involuntary urges to speak of the lies laid on by power of corruption through the myth and metaphor?

It may incarnate as a nebulous issue needing great understanding of the noir literary skills about corruption.

You really don't need to know this but it has a certain assistance in the sense of parable and pseudonym ...

I cann't be explained for reason of oblivion ... so the regular phoque can't see what is sealed in the quis 've d e ath portion! It just follows no matter what ...

Imagine those that declare the NUs and noos is evil ... I am familiar with many people that will not listen to any news whatsoever ... thus blinded to what is current!

Perfect absence of data as ignorance is approaching ... we're coming to it ... and IDE too will pas ...

May be unraveled from archaic literature ... per hap snot ... just phlogestion? May appear tax 'ng to many, thus the urge to not consider it!

Noos a an old word for mind as root of paranoia ... some fear the open others confinement ... there are implications about rising too high from a previously closed spot! Dough Terrin? Gurls are sold off without consideration, worry, or thoughts by padre archy set on profits in the husbandry game ... misto geny? Originating from d' jinn ... cotton well? No grasp ...

Lower doff the flies takes flight as Ephraim ... Effy?

Rule: Say nothing to the brutes that they might understand by chance ... quantumly they will beat you with your thoughts ... bad business!

 

[jimkenney12]

Is this a fair summary of our discussion? ( The teacher in me is asserting itself).
All spiritual gifts are important and not to be ranked.
All spiritual gifts are given for the sake of the community.
The community is called to encourage its members to use and develop their gifts.
Differences are not to be used to divide the community.
The community is to be egalitarian without elites.

The gift of speaking in tongues is a gift that is difficult to test or understand and open to abuse as well as important communication.

Anything else?

 

[paradox3]

Of course, the counter-argument there is that maybe the subconscious is how The Spirit reaches out (in?) to us. After all, if God can use dreams to communicate, subconscious responses would be on the table, too, wouldn't they? Yes, if one takes a hard, scientific approach, then it's "just" subconscious responses. But if you are conceding faith in a powerful, immanent deity to start with, then maybe there's more to those subconscious responses.

I have personally experienced a very strong sense of God's presence on two occasions when I was quite sleep deprived (hint a new baby was involved).

The scientific explanation would be disorganized thinking/ altered perception due to lack of sleep.

But I wonder. Did God choose this time to speak to me? I rather doubt it because I don't believe in a God who meddles in our affairs that much.

The more likely explanation seems to be that God is always present but we are too busy/ preoccupied/ defended to see it.

 

[Mendalla]

I rather doubt it because I don't believe in a God who meddles in our affairs that much.

See, since I lean to process, I don't believe in a God who meddles DIRECTLY (e.g. miraculous events) but I do believe that a God who seeks to communicate with us and show us God's path and plan is quite possible.

(And babies can lead to lack of sleep? Nah, never happens. )

 

[Luce NDs]

Is this a fair summary of our discussion? ( The teacher in me is asserting itself).
All spiritual gifts are important and not to be ranked.
All spiritual gifts are given for the sake of the community.
The community is called to encourage its members to use and develop their gifts.
Differences are not to be used to divide the community.
The community is to be egalitarian without elites.

The gift of speaking in tongues is a gift that is difficult to test or understand and open to abuse as well as important communication.

Anything else?

Yet they still stack up in tiers as a late friend lold me about PHD and how they pile higher and deeper as they sinque into chaos ... sad song ah?

If the nonsense gets weighty as irony ... will it sink in? Thus the stab of Ք an Arminian khe to the unknown void? Stuff continuing out of sight as iconic sign ... these icon-isms may occur in different linguists as stray phonetics ...

It goes to prove how little we know of alien expressions ... so much wrot! If you know something stele away ...

 

[paradox3]

See, since I lean to process, I don't believe in a God who meddles DIRECTLY (e.g. miraculous events) but I do believe that a God who seeks to communicate with us and show us God's path and plan is quite possible.

(And babies can lead to lack of sleep? Nah, never happens. )

If we believe that God's power is persuasive it stands to reason that God needs to communicate with us somehow. Through dreams? Through the subconscious? Through other people?

Communication with us through other people seems a bit too interventionist to me. I believe we are all far more interconnected than we often realize though.

 

[Luce NDs]

If we believe that God's power is persuasive it stands to reason that God needs to communicate with us somehow. Through dreams? Through the subconscious? Through other people?

Communication with us through other people seems a bit too interventionist to me. I believe we are all far more interconnected than we often realize though.

Involuntary God no less odd, thus we can't help oursevles as the driven incarnates ... in some alien manifest emote ...

Like a crock in the night ... flew ... chitz fell as they might ... eh!

What'san emote? Beyond much ...

 

[Mystic]

Is this a fair summary of our discussion? ( The teacher in me is asserting itself).
All spiritual gifts are important and not to be ranked.

No, Paul distinguishes "greater gifts" from lesser gifts, but does not make clear exactly which gifts are included in the elite category:
"Earnestly strive for the GREATER GIFTS (12:31)."

Non-Pentecostal Evangelicals commonly argue that speaking in tongues is the least of the gifts because Paul lists it last, but he does so only because this gift is being abused at Corinth and he ranks it as the equal of prophecy (one of the "greater gifts") if the tongues are interpreted:
"One who prophesies is GREATER THAN one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up (14:5).

But I think Paul would distinguish the relative greatness of each spiritual gift from the greatness of the gifted believer's spirituality.
Paul's ranking of body parts in the corporate Body of Christ is relevant here:
"God gives greater honor to the inferior member, that there may be no dissension within the Body, but the members may have the same care for one another (12:24-25)."

Which is the greater gift--the gift of comforter and counselor for someone afflicted with cancer or the gift of miraculous healing (12:28-29) to cure that cancer? Paul's congregations experienced "miracles," "signs and wonders," and "a demonstration of the Spirit and of power" (Galatians 3:5; Romans 15:18-19; 1 Corinthians 2:4-5). I think of Kathryn Kuhlman, who started out as a young divorced Baptist woman, whose denomination denied her the right to exercise any ecclesial authority over men. Yet she and Smith Wigglesworth became the most awesome healers of the 20th century. Rev. Steve from WC had Dr. Gerald Sheppard as an OT professor. Dr. Sheppard and I attended 2 Kathryn Kuhlman healing services in the LA Shrine Auditorium, the former site of the Academy Awards. You had to get there an hour early before the meeting began at noon on Sunday. to get one of the 9,000 seats. Dr. Sheppard remarked to me, "If this isn't real, then nothing is!" Some of those healed in the prior meeting brought their medical before and after records for inspection. Shrieks and screams erupted throughout the auditorium as the sick and handicapped were healed in their seats! The atmosphere was charged with the glory of God.

 

[jimkenney12]

The greatest gift might be the gift of unconditional self giving love. It would influence how the other gifts are used. Greater gifts for the Corinthians might include discernment so they could see how their divisions were deviations from the point of their community and humility so they could accept the need to behave differently.

 

[paradox3]

Kathryn Kuhlman mentioned by @Mystic was a controversial figure. She died in 1976.