Paul does not consider agape love a "gift" ("charisma"), but rather a "fruit" (Galatians 5:22-23). Note that "fruit" is singular and refers to "love." The rest of the list clarifies the nature of agape love rather than point to distinctive virtues. My problem with your remark is that many Christians claim to manifest "unconditional self-giving love" as an excuse to avoid their failure to "eagerly strive for " spiritual gifts, and yet, the love they pretend doesn't even remotely qualify as both "unconditional" and "self-giving."
1 Corinthians (various passages) - Paul is not a happy apostle
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jimkenney12
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So what is the vine or tree that produces agape love?
Testimony of a man (with photos) who was healed of terminal brain cancer as a young boy when Kathryn Kuhlman laid hands on him:
Meet Billy—Healed of Cancer at Age 9 - KCM Blog
Billy Burke was 9 years old when he was diagnosed with terminal brain cancer, with only hours to days to live. Discover how Billy was healed of cancer! “When she touches you, you will be healed.” Those are the words Billy Burke’s grandmother spoke over and over again to 9-year-old Billy. They...
blog.kcm.org
My friend Lloyd has a friend who was a closed-minded agnostic. One day he accidently bumped into a woman in a crowded mall, who laid hands on him to brace herself for the contact. Both just smiled and went on their way. By the end of that day, Lloyd's friend had been convicted of his sin and become a devout Christian. He later saw Kathryn Kuhlman's photo and realized that she was the woman in the mall who laid hands on him to avoid the collision. Kathryn's healing touch could transmit both physical and spiritual healing.
paradox3
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My mother asked kathryn kuhlman for healing, via a letter, but wanted very badly to see her personally. Instead she received back a letter but Mom ended up dying a year or so later. One never knew if KK would have seen my mother's request or if it was just read by an aid. But my Mom absolutely believed in her miracles.Testimony of a man (with photos) who was healed of terminal brain cancer as a young boy when Kathryn Kuhlman laid hands on him:
Meet Billy—Healed of Cancer at Age 9 - KCM Blog
Billy Burke was 9 years old when he was diagnosed with terminal brain cancer, with only hours to days to live. Discover how Billy was healed of cancer! “When she touches you, you will be healed.” Those are the words Billy Burke’s grandmother spoke over and over again to 9-year-old Billy. They...blog.kcm.org
My friend Lloyd has a friend who was a closed-minded agnostic. One day he accidently bumped into a woman in a crowded mall, who laid hands on him to brace herself for the contact. Both just smiled and went on their way. By the end of that day, Lloyd's friend had been convicted of his sin and become a devout Christian. He later saw Kathryn Kuhlman's photo and realized that she was the woman in the mall who laid hands on him to avoid the collision. Kathryn's healing touch could transmit both physical and spiritual healing.
paradox3
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Kathryn was a big influence in charismatic Christianity
You can google Kathryn Kuhlman and listen to her talk about miracles. But there is no comparison between doing that and encountering her in person.
In her meetings there was an electrifying sense of God's sweet presence anointing her ministry. But to be clear, most of the people who came for healing were not healed. But when they were, the healings could be spectacular creation miracles--like when an atheist brought his baby boy born with no hip sockets to her meeting only because his wife nagged him to do so, and the baby supernaturally received hips in a creation miracle. There is good reason why none of the 9,000 seats were available minutes after an hour before her noon healing meetings at the LA Shrine Auditorium.
paradox3
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Sorry, I seriously do not believe the supernatural has ever been able to grow hips where they are missing.
I do believe that individuals such as this healer have a powerful presence which can affect people deeply. Even the random encounter in the mall doesn't seem completely farfetched to me.
And of course, I believe in the scientific explanation of the placebo effect.
I do believe that individuals such as this healer have a powerful presence which can affect people deeply. Even the random encounter in the mall doesn't seem completely farfetched to me.
And of course, I believe in the scientific explanation of the placebo effect.
Jesus claims to be the True Vine, but we qualify as proper branches who can "bear much fruit' only if Jesus "prunes" us (John 15:1-2). Pruning involves an inner "cleansing" process (15:3), but what that cleansing means remains unclear. So we seek clarification from Paul:
"The fruit (singular) of the Spirit is agape love: joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control (Galatians 5:22-23)."
Here 2 crucial points must be noted:
(1) The fruit of agape love is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit, not of our mechanical obedience or human efforts.
(2) " Paul clarifies the mystical meaning of this in 5:24: "If we live in the Spirit, let us also be led by the Spirit."
But then Paul makes it clear that we won't be "led by the Spirit" if we are ego-invested in comparative spiritualities (see 5:25).
That warning helps clarify the nature of the "pruning" and inner 'cleansing" that Jesus has in mind in His True Vine discourse.
My recent example of being "led by the Spirit" was a powerful prompting to walk towards an intersection after dark, where I encountered Clint who desperately needed a sympathetic ear because he had just found his son on the kitchen floor, dead of a drug overdose, and some kind soul had told him his son "had it coming." I lament that I don't have such mystical tender experiences more regularly.
jimkenney12
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So how are fruits of the Spirit different from gifts of the Spirit?
Fruit of the Spirit serve as a measure of our progress towards agape love as a way of being.
Gifts of the Spirit ("charisma" = gracelets) are gifts of grace given for ministry to others. Because they are "gracelets" (grace-based imparted abilities), they are bestowed as an act of grace. not merit, and therefore do not necessarily indicate the inner holiness of their recipient.
Obviously in the eyes of a winner this could lead to a loser ... and the ups will ensure the thinkers descend!
Tis a mental enigma dependant on the essence of psyche existing ... counter to many belief systems. They never obseveed such a thing except in the darkness of the knight ... in a myth goode knows what ...
A gap presents something to avoid by rites of passage ... unless passing through ... thus very little makes sense to those arrested to watch the powers as they emote ... for mores! The icon of never satisfied and forever wanting for something ... a sad song!
In the absence of a difficult psyche (hard case) is there a void or other dark abstract in the night of sol?
If black; could such a thing be produced oblivious to those observing ... so it appeared as a gheist! Ghost holes in hard virtue ... not to be had in an imperfect run at humanity ...
Shades are thus said to be existently oblivious to those blind to 'it ... funny thing if not alien ... nobody knew it and thus stranger than a fictional love among vast fields of eight! Perhaps a gift of phonetic ...
If black; could such a thing be produced oblivious to those observing ... so it appeared as a gheist! Ghost holes in hard virtue ... not to be had in an imperfect run at humanity ...
Shades are thus said to be existently oblivious to those blind to 'it ... funny thing if not alien ... nobody knew it and thus stranger than a fictional love among vast fields of eight! Perhaps a gift of phonetic ...
BetteTheRed
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I know we've moved on from this, back into charisms, but this struck me. I don't think that's possible, or even desirable. I belong to four or six sub-groups of people who do specific things. I'm on the Board, I lead a team, I'm the keeper of the official roll, I lead one study group, attend another, have responsibility for Vacation Bible Camp, the Peace Labyrinth and the Seder supper. And the plant sale. I DO NOT do kitchen stuff, except my own Student Lunch, and I will dry dishes after a function, but I don't cook nor serve. I do not sew or knit, so I don't participate in those events. I don't help in the nursery or Junior Church. I tend to avoid outreach type activities; I am not the face you want serving breakfast to the homeless. You don't want me in your choir unless you want the altos and the tenors singing off key.
So, I am in a much closer relationship with many in the congregation than I am with many others, who simply don't intersect with my life. I think we're called upon to be polite and respectful to others, not necessarily force relationship where nothing underpins it.
Mendalla
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And I think that's going to be true in many congregations, especially as you get into larger ones. In my old family church (400+ households on the roll), there were the folks I knew well, mostly ones with kids around my age so that I was in Sunday School and sometimes even regular school with them, and the ones I only knew by name and the odd handshake after church. Dad and Mom probably had fairly broad circles, though, given that Dad was often on the board and involved in AOTS while Mom was heavily involved in UCW (oh, and both were in Couples Club, later renamed to something more inclusive that I forget since we did have some single folks) and eventually became secretary. Still, I am sure they weren't on a first name basis with absolutely everyone.
But I am not sure that @jimkenney12 is saying you have to be intimate friends with everyone. A friendly nod and respectful "hello" or short chat after church is still relationship. If they are named in pastoral prayers, be ready to offer congratulations or condolences as appropriate. And so on. Treat them with kindness and respect even if they are not part of your circle.
In Paul's day, of course, churches were quite small and met in homes. They likely were as much circles of like-minded friends as large social groups so perhaps the story would be different there. Everyone really would know everyone.
jimkenney12
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Thank you Mendalla for providing a great explanation of what I meant
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
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Good to know I got it right. Otherwise, I might have to drop in next time I am up Ottawa way to make amends.
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
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