Affirming Congregations

[chansen]

It doesn't matter a flying fark what the Word of God says. If you're more worried about what two people are doing behind closed doors than you are about their well being, and are going to base your treatment toward them on the former rather than the latter, your faith sucks.

If someone is more worried about what God thinks than they are about helping those damaged by people convinced they know what God thinks, then

http://www.awab.org/

Holy s**t. I mean, it's about 100 churches in the States, but still...

Who are you quoting there chansen? Those words were not posted by me.

Not you. Some general comments above.

 

[Tabitha]

I'm with Inna sometimes Jae does this to provoke us.

In one congregation the vote (official members only) was taken at the end of lectures, and sermons and discussion.

at the 2nd congregation we used a consensus model. One objector wanted his feelings recorded. They were. I put them in the minutes. He was not against us fully including LBTQ etc. folk, he just didn't want that to be our sole focus.

Some interesting stories came out in the process. Two women both had sons similar ages who were gay-but neither knew they were not alone.

 

[Ritafee]

It doesn't matter a flying fark what the Word of God says. If you're more worried about what two people are doing behind closed doors than you are about their well being, and are going to base your treatment toward them on the former rather than the latter, your faith sucks.

If someone is more worried about what God thinks than they are about helping those damaged by people convinced they know what God thinks, then

Affirmation in the churches has little to do with the word of God but a lot to do with the word of the law of the land and the eagerness of the churches to comply with government legislation dictating what is and is not allowed behind closed doors and whether or not charitable status will or will not be revoked.

 

[Hilary]

I wonder who has planted the seed in each your congregations that have become Affirming? We recently hired a minister who is LGBTQ and wonder whether it would be more appropriate/considerate if the idea to begin the process comes from a member of the congregation instead of from the minister himself.
That said, I don't want to be the one to do it. I am already heavily involved in the work of the church and this is not a place where my passion lies. But I recognise the value and would certainly be supportive of the group that spearheaded.

 

[Jaebius]

Affirmation in the churches has little to do with the word of God but a lot to do with the word of the law of the land and the eagerness of the churches to comply with government legislation dictating what is and is not allowed behind closed doors and whether or not charitable status will or will not be revoked.

Frankly monk, I think that's unfair. You're suggesting that the churches who are Affirming don't care about what God has to say. I think they do. They're just using different hermeneutics in interpreting the Bible than many non-Affirming churches do.

Welcome to Wondercafe2.

 

[Tabitha]

not sure who at first church, the committee at 2nd church 3 had family members in what my middle child calls qilt bag. 4th person is transgendered.

I do remember parts of sermon preached by minister at the first church-she mentioned she disagreed with her dad on this subject (he was also a minister) she invited people who wanted to further discuss the issue to meet with her 1:1, and she reminded the congregation that not only were they welcoming couples to be married (as had been done for awhile) but also welcoming children of such couples to baptism, sunday school and confirmation.

 

[chansen]

Affirmation in the churches has little to do with the word of God but a lot to do with the word of the law of the land and the eagerness of the churches to comply with government legislation dictating what is and is not allowed behind closed doors and whether or not charitable status will or will not be revoked.

bulls**t. Lots of churches believe lots of hateful things, and they maintain tax exemptions unavailable to other clubs just fine.

 

[Ritafee]

What I am saying is that religious organizations cannot preach faith over finances unless they are willing to forego charitable status. A church, like any other club, has to lose its favorable tax treatment in order to freely act as its conscience dictates.

 

[Pinga]

@Pr. Jae
Is there a reason you ignored the formation of the group that I mentioned.
The selection was not based on where they stood on the position of affirming.
The selection was based on their church community engagement (did we have each community represented/covered: old, young, board members, c&e types, staff, lay, volunteer groups, church school, and so on...)
Were the people ones that people would talk about their fears openly with, that would listen and trust their feedback.


Our process was long, there is no doubt, but it was quite thorough.
As it turned out there were people on the committee who were quite strongly against the affirming process.

One of the parts of the process, was the in depth discussions as well as story-telling by members of our congregation impacted or with strong view points: A retired minister told of his challenge during the '88 decision when he knew that his son was/is gay, and he was dealing with vile statements from congregants. Another person spoke of the difference between welcome and affirm. A person who was starting transition spoke of the importance of being included and supported. There was bible study on scriptural passages, led and discussed. There was tons of time. Then there was listening to the wider community.....

it was challenging. Yet, I witnessed my parents go from "no", to "well maybe", to "absolutely" even when pressured by friends, and the reason was....per my mom, "i sat and thought, what if it was _____<insert grandchild name> and I realized how I needed to vote." It was , in the end, about love...."what would Jesus do" indeed.

Yet, that was not the going in assumption. Nor was the primary group structured to lead it to that way.

 

[Seeler]

I wonder who has planted the seed in each your congregations that have become Affirming? We recently hired a minister who is LGBTQ and wonder whether it would be more appropriate/considerate if the idea to begin the process comes from a member of the congregation instead of from the minister himself.
That said, I don't want to be the one to do it. I am already heavily involved in the work of the church and this is not a place where my passion lies. But I recognise the value and would certainly be supportive of the group that spearheaded.

My understanding is that it is usually lay led -- the request comes from someone (or some group) in the congregation. The board (or council) gives approval and/or support, and a committee is formed. The minister stays somewhat in the background following the lead of the committee.

 

[Luce NDs]

Does everything come to an all inclusive idealism that many churches would rather see disposed of? Perhaps eliminated as isolationists? Can we put the little pieces aside in a world depends on small stuff supporting the all round status?

Then we have the women in all corners of the world ... as well-rounded did the edge parts get tucked in? Good tucker from down under? This could be a chuck eLLe under the sheets if you read into adepts regarding the story as it goes around out there as myth ... myopic passion isn't real? If one disposed of the unseen would it be virtue ... US? What do we really see of what's going on in scared institutions of tyranny? S*tars as integral in the dark shadow of night ... place of imaginary things ... like thoughts ... some tyrants call these negative in their light!

As Chansen puts his all into his reaction I can see a twinkle of a god evolution ... even revolving as apocalyptic behaviour to a rare few ...

In short do dispensary isolationists have trouble with integration? Thus the other side disposed of them ... almost like an echo, or ego ... poorly understood transposition? Transmutation of an injury into the dark era ...

 

[Jaebius]

....As it turned out there were people on the committee who were quite strongly against the affirming process.

Nice. As well there should have been imho. Personally, I think such a Committee could work best that was about 1/4 in favor of the process, 1/2 open but cautious, and 1/4 opposed.

One of the parts of the process, was the in depth discussions as well as story-telling by members of our congregation impacted or with strong view points: A retired minister told of his challenge during the '88 decision when he knew that his son was/is gay, and he was dealing with vile statements from congregants. Another person spoke of the difference between welcome and affirm. A person who was starting transition spoke of the importance of being included and supported. There was bible study on scriptural passages, led and discussed. There was tons of time. Then there was listening to the wider community.....

Stories that really pulled on the old heart-strings, huh? How much proper exegesis was done of the pertinent biblical texts? How many stories were told that in any way would lead people to see becoming Affirming in a negative way? Was there balance?

it was challenging. Yet, I witnessed my parents go from "no", to "well maybe", to "absolutely" even when pressured by friends, and the reason was....per my mom, "i sat and thought, what if it was _____<insert grandchild name> and I realized how I needed to vote." It was , in the end, about love...."what would Jesus do" indeed.

Okay. You wouldn't get me to change my mind based on fleeting feelings. My only focus - what does God say in his Word.

Yet, that was not the going in assumption. Nor was the primary group structured to lead it to that way.

Sweet.

 

[Luce NDs]

Stories that really pulled on the old heart-strings, huh? How much proper exegesis was done of the pertinent biblical texts? How many stories were told that in any way would lead people to see becoming Affirming in a negative way? Was there balance?

Back to the KJ Law by an authority that was a real jerk if you read into history on what he wished taught!

Modern translations are based on his attributes of emotional-intellect ... of which he had a rare bit!

Use your given imagination and study some original tongues ... strange to the host or reality ...

 

[Pinga]

You discount the bible study? Wow.
Whichever way the congregations voted, there was pastoral care required. The listening to the stories was part of the care. Just asking the question stirred up emotions.
everyone was asked if they wished to present to the group. Those who were not affirming were represented and stories were also heard. Everyone needs to be heard.

I as an advocate would not be recommended or advised to be in the group. It would serve no purpose and could unduly influence or polarize the group.

The group needed to be absolutely ope. To listening and bringing questions and dialogue back to the community

In the end the vote was resoundingly for affirming. The primary argument against was "we already ate". We had 1 or maybe 2 couples leave. Pastoral care was given

 

[Luce NDs]

Within the polity of the temple once should raise eLLe ... thus the dark reminder of why connections happen between the emotions and rare thoughts in a predominantly emotional domain ...

Just vents can lead to war ... if not really well turned, roled and looked at from all NDs ... allows for a balnce in the mental heartlands ... and thus the poe Ming of soils ... and other dirt of the imaginary bottom lands ... it can be rutted with the urge for poking, spitting ... an messing about with the ploughman to arrange a san' witching expedition to the inner realms and the loss of the soldier in de folds ...

 

[Pinga]

(ope = open)

 

[Luce NDs]

(ope = open)

Thus the opus? Some say it is nothing ... some say like a clam hard to get to ... as into the dark lands of sole ... a celestial singularity ...?

 

[BetteTheRed]

...Personally, I think such a Committee could work best that was about 1/4 in favor of the process, 1/2 open but cautious, and 1/4 opposed...

In my congregation, you would not have found 1/4 of any number group opposed unless your committee comprised 4 people. In our congregation, there might be 1 or 2 left of a congregation of 180 members, and I don't even know who they are, although I might guess at one and s/he is very happy organizing ushers and quilting with her friends.

 

[Luce NDs]

In my congregation, you would not have found 1/4 of any number group opposed unless your committee comprised 4 people. In our congregation, there might be 1 or 2 left of a congregation of 180 members, and I don't even know who they are, although I might guess at one and s/he is very happy organizing ushers and quilting with her friends.

Happy with ignoring what matters to the virtue aL (good for all)?

Con you imagine corruption of what Mills described as pragmatism ... or for the greater good ... especially considering with the isolationism of the western world except in their urge to control everything else but themselves ...

Perhaps it is best to breed themselves out of existence ... is such a thing a phoqah up of colossal order?


Could the process of phoqah the world lead to collapse ... or just pro lapse of decent intellect?

 

[Luce NDs]

Do you know the ambiguous context of the Hebrew "phoqah"? It is a dark order spread across and arid area ... like hammered papyrus ... derived from a' nihilism ... the wile to be laid out in myth?

That's the Egyptian nite for yah ... something to rise from with some learning?