Old Question Revisited - Who is Jesus?

[chansen]

Not exactly. Jesus was brash at times. He was anti-establishment. He was unabashed about saying so when he saw fit to. But the distinction between him and the militant zealots is that he DID preach peace. He DID say love your enemies, and he DID die on the cross. He didn't flee. They people in the square called for the militant 'Jesus' to be freed. They killed Jesus of Nazareth - the peace loving one. They were zealots. You like this 'zealot' view because it's more fodder for you to say, "see?!" - to me. But I think you're wrong. I think it's not one way or the other. Jesus was not a warm fuzzy guy...at least not with everyone. Nor was he a militant zealot.

There's this part of the bible called "Revelation". You should really skim through it some time. And there are some verses in the gospels you managed to skip every single time through as well. Maybe don't skim those next time. Revelation is so chock-full of violence that you really can't miss it.

But no, you don't follow Jesus - you follow Jeebus. Jeebus would never hurt a fly. When Jeebus comes back, it won't be a Day of Reckoning, it will be a giant street party! With balloons!

And if that's the Jesus I want to believe in - if that's me creating him in the image I want him to be - as you say...I still think you're wrong...but so what? Why is that even an argument worth worrying about?

Because your whitewashing of the bible is disgraceful and obvious. You believe in Jeebus. Jeebus is your invention, and you have created an entire religion around it where Jeebus wants everyone to disarm and live peaceful lives in communes that grow their own food and drive VW vans powered by unicorn farts.

I usually argue against Christianity being a net positive effect on the world. Then it's a case of how people weigh the good and the bad done in the name of Christianity, and how you can possibly do that and be accurate. You're not like that. You've created Jeebus, who has never advocated violence, as the basis of something that is not Christianity, but you call it that anyway. And we're supposed to sit back and accept your invention? No.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Your treatment of me right now is disgraceful and obvious, that's what. I don't think you're qualified to say what you just said...because for one thing you have little tolerance for nuance. You see the bible as black and white. You're like a fundementalist non-Christian. Secondly because you expect every follower of Christ to have MDiv. They can correct me where they take strong issue with my beliefs- and they usually don't. You can't. You don't know what you're saying even less than you claim that I don't based, on your own criteria.

So you expect everyone to have a theology degree to be qualified to speak about their Christian experience, and yet, having never attended church, barely read the bible, never actually having read any theologians' work...you will pick up any bit of fodder you can use to attack, and run with it. That's disgraceful...seeing as disgrace means "dis-grace". And you will attack who you perceive as weakest. There are plenty of folks who believe similar to me. Maybe not exactly because every journey is unique, but similar. Your objective is never to learn something, only find something you can attack with. What was that about twisting things to suit a point of view?

And no. It had nothing to do with Jeebus and a VW. I'm not even a hippy. I could care less what Jesus is wearing. It's about hoping and believing in a new age of peace to come.

 

[Delightful Life]

Inanna - you asked "Did the book help you?"

It's hard to say exactly, but yes. It broadened my understanding. It provides a balance for Borg and Crossan's book "The First Paul". It helps me to appreciate some of the other NT writings - ie The Epistle of James, which I immediately reread when I realized I knew almost nothing about it. Now I have one more interpretation of Jesus floating around in my head and heart - and becoming part of who I am and what I believe.

Your video gave a link to the author taking part in an interesting debate with an atheist, moderated by a Jew. It's 1 1/2 hours long, so I've only watched the first third. An interesting comment, made by the moderator at one point. 'Here we have a Muslim, an Atheist, and a Jew discussing the Christian epistle of Paul to Timothy'.I can't wait to free up enough time to watch the rest.

Life is midrash :3

There are some really great movies that illustrate 'jewishness':

A Serious Man by the Cohen Bros
Black Book by Paul Verhoeven
Tree of Life by Terrence Malik

ambiguity, struggle, truth

on Reza, here's a lengthy talk by him. i like his style

here's him holding his own against an antagonistic interviewer

 

[Delightful Life]

I wish I remembered where I read a really well written article deconstructing Reza Aslan's book. There are other scholars who've done a good job refuting Aslan's views.

And Reza, as part of being a scientist & good researcher, includes, in his book Zealot, a list of scholars who refute him and who believe him.

That's part of what a good scientist does :3

You should read his book...there's a lot of nuance, context, conditions there :3

(that's one of the things aboot Jewish people -- they're practical historical -- they will do what it takes to deal with an enemy, and Jesus likely knew that defeating the Romans -- a vast & powerful force -- would take some measure of violence.)

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I want to read it. It's likely that I will learn something from it, but it won't change my point of view from a spiritual perspective.

 

[Delightful Life]

ya gotta watch out for them unicorns, them wascally critters

adam & eve tootin it up

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I'm not looking to science to confirm or deny my spiritual perspective when it comes to what I hope for. Peace among people. I have a more of a poet's perspective, than a scientist's. It's pointless and impossible to debate poetry or compare it to science. They're two different tracks of thought.

 

[Delightful Life]

I want to read it. It's likely that I will learn something from it, but it won't change my point of view from a spiritual perspective.

i don't really care if it does or doesn't :3

you're right, it will be YOU who change, not some book who does it

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Why do you feel I so badly need to change how I think about Jesus? Why are you 'working on me'? Why do you so badly want or expect me to change?

 

[Delightful Life]

I'm not looking to science to confirm or deny my spiritual perspective when it comes to what I hope for. Peace among people. I have a more of a poet's perspective, than a scientist's. It's pointless and impossible to debate poetry or compare it to science. They're two different tracks of thought.

Science is the hard-won collective KNOWLEDGE of humanity, not some poetry-destroying, imaginating annulling evil and sinful thing

But knowledge

You can do whatever you like. It's your mind & brain & life. Even though there are some religious folk who don't want you to think or act a certain way, atheists & agnostics won't deny you that innate right.

 

[Delightful Life]

Why do you feel I so badly need to change how I think about Jesus? Why are you 'working on me'?

I never said that and I don't hope that.

Your mind & lifestyle are entirely your own, m'dear, and are sacrosanct.

I'm not some religious nut that will try to enact laws to force you to change.

All I am doing is writing & riffing & trying to communicate without you needing to be a certain way or have a certain endpoint or conclusion.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Science is the hard-won collective KNOWLEDGE of humanity, not some poetry-destroying, imaginating annulling evil and sinful thing

But knowledge

You can do whatever you like. It's your mind & brain & life. Even though there are some religious folk who don't want you to think or act a certain way, atheists & agnostics won't deny you that innate right.

It seems to me you are somehow interested in me changing who I am. I don't quite understand why.

 

[Delightful Life]

It seems to me you are somehow interested in me changing who I am. I don't quite understand why.

again, you are mindreading here, putting in realities that don't exist

your mind & body & soul & lifestyle are your own & sacrosanct

writing here in WC is not me 'trying to change who you are'. your words that you post here are not who you are. who you are is something that i can never know.

only you can change who you are

you have a wonderful amazing power that you should be glad of -- your concept of Jesus and g_d, that is yours and yours alone that is separate from what anyone else thinks or teaches you or has ever taught you

keep testifying!

"hoping and believing in a new age of peace to come."
--Kimmio

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

The words that I post are often a heartfelt expression of who I am - when making my brst effort to articulate my beliefs. That is why I am easily hurt when those words are attacked.

 

[chansen]

And no. It had nothing to do with Jeebus and a VW. I'm not even a hippy. I could care less what Jesus is wearing. It's about hoping and believing in a new age of peace to come.

Yes, Jesus will return and lead, after conquering everybody else. Such pacifist. Most gentle.

Thankfully, like you, Jeebus never read Revelation.

As for your insistence that I require others have an MDiv to discuss their "Christian experience", I have no idea what you're talking about, and invite anyone who does know to point that out to me.

I don't think I'm a fundamentalist non-Christian, because there are no texts about a non-God to fundamentally follow. Because "fundamentalist" is an insult in liberal Christianity, I think you're desperate to apply that label to me as well.

Hey, I admit there is some good stuff in the bible. That Jesus guy is credited with some great lines. But I'm just not impressed. I get that you are. I think that, on the whole, religion holds us back. There is no clear way to measure the gains and losses due to religion, but I can say that I think it's a net negative, and point to reasons why. I'm not a fundamentalist in the way unsafe is - I don't tell you that I have divine knowledge that it is, and I don't write that it's "a net negative. PERIOD." I make my points. I have fun with a rather deep topic because it lends itself to humour. I skewer faith where I can because I think it deserves no less.

My commentary on Christianity and religion in general is peppered with facts, studies, stories, personal observations, and the occasional wisecrack. I have fun with religion where I can, and it's always been there for me with a ridiculous belief or bit of scripture I didn't know about before. I think you believe in Jeebus. Jeebus sounds like a great guy. I could really get behind a guy like that. Jeebus, take the wheel, I say. But there are too many discrepancies between Jesus and Jeebus to conclude they are the same character.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I don't like the Book of Revelation. How Christendom would have been shaped had they chosen to leave that book out (there were other books left out) could well have been different and we may not be so close to seeing what looks a self fulfilling apocalyptic prophecy take shape in the world. What Revelation was, was a dream or vision by a man named John - a poetic/ dreamlike rendition of what would take place as his experience of the 'world' as he and his peers knew it was coming to an end.

Not only that, but the book was placed at the end of the bible. Chronologically, it wasn't written at the end. Creating, IMO, another distortion that almost becomes self fulfilling prophecy in the collective psyche...and I am against that as much as you are. I do not believe we are called to hope for the end, but to keep caring for each other and the earth, and doing better at it - not worse. Revelation reads to me like a consequence for the earth if worse comes to worse, not something to hope for.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

As for the comment I made about you expecting people to have an M.Div. it seems to me that you're grounded in the idea that people must be university educated to have a qualified opinion on most things. Faith doesn't work quite that way.

 

[Delightful Life]

The words that I post are often a heartfelt expression of who I am - when making my best effort to articulate my beliefs. That is why I am easily hurt when those words are attacked.

ty for that expression :3

from that simple beginning comes a whole lot of humanity's problems, imho, which are all iterations of 'you aren't taking my words like i take my words'. one woman's pron is another's ero-tica, one man's insult is another's friendly greeting, one person's holy wafer is another person's cracker, one child's awesome movie is another child's stupid movie, one soul's rising hope is another soul's raspberry sound...

as i write this, be reassured that i am not writing aboot you here

all of us here, who have all these different words, concepts, experiences, lifestyles, worldviews that we all take differently, have to learn how to live together...it can be challenging :3

(man, i kept on getting that annoying 403 censorship error...creative editing to the rescue!)

 

[chansen]

I don't like the Book of Revelation.

That's smart. It's horror porn, as I think someone here called it. But you'd don't have the authority to remove it from the bible. You do get to remove it from the bibble, about Jeebus. That's your invention.

 

[chansen]

As for the comment I made about you expecting people to have an M.Div. it seems to me that you're grounded in the idea that people must be university educated to have a qualified opinion on most things. Faith doesn't work quite that way.

Are you high?!? Where have I even hinted at that?