An article "The church is killing its gay kids"

[Seeler]

A recent study has shown that the rate of suicide for rural youth is double that of youth in the city. They are more isolated, less likely to have access to some form of help, have more access to firearms and are usually living in poverty.

I also think that a lot of people don't even realize they are depressed....it becomes chronic and an acceptance of living life "less" becomes okay and gradually worsens. Even friends and family come to think of it as just part of who they are without encouraging them towards help.

How can we change the picture? So many issues to address....gun control, poverty, isolation, getting kids through the awkward years, increased confidence, .......probably more you can think of. Basically "joy" for living has to be restored and I do feel the church/God can have a part to play in that along with other professionals.

Joy! I agree Waterfall. We have to help youth, and all people, find joy in living. I find much of my joy comes from my trust in God. This is a joy that helps me through pain, disappointment, poverty, struggle, illness and worry. It is my wish for all people that they might find JOY.

 

[unsafe]

RitaTG ---- Your quote ----Can we at least agree that simply being LGBTQ is NOT a sin?

I understand that you really want to think that ---but it is not as simple as saying it is ------you or the church can't change God's word or the process that man took to create the mess we are all born into ------it is of no fault of ours -----Jesus is well aware of all the issues that plaque mankind since the fall of man -----I am a gay person do you not think I would like to believe that God Blessed me with this ------But I have to be realistic when it comes to God and His word and I have to accept what the results of the fall of man did ----it made me Spiritually dead --and away from God ---doing what I wanted to do without thought or feeling for what moral values a Spiritual God wanted -- If the LGBTQ PERSON is not A Jew by birth are they under God's Laws --No ---but they still are a sinner and disobedient to moral Spiritual standards of right and wrong ---multiple partners ----fornication ---cheating on their present partners --etc ---they are no different than Heterosexual people who are sinners -doing the same thing--away from God ---All done in Sin ----leading to eternal Spiritual Death in the end --

We can deny ---deny ---deny -sin all we want to---but that will not change the fall of man and what it brought to mankind ---sin

This is from 1 Tim 1 verses -8-9 -10 ----Context ----Warning against False Teaching

…8But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,9realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers10and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,…

Law is good, if one uses it lawfully ---the Laws are moral statues that give us a compass of right and wrong actions even if your not under them ------

law is not made for a righteous person ----Accepting Christ frees us from our sins --we have to then stop doing the wrong and strengthen the right ---through Grace

The law is still in place for -----lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,…


Now I found this on the Exodus International ---------http://www.exodusglobalalliance.org/exodus-international-c1447.php

In 2004, Exodus International renamed themselves Exodus Global Alliance.


August 20, 2013
Exodus Global Alliance is a Christian ministry to people impacted by homosexuality.

Exodus Global Alliance has three missions:

1. Proclaiming that faith in Christ and a transformed life is possible through the power of Jesus Christ for people who experience same-sex attractions and people involved in homosexuality.
2. Equipping Christians and churches to uphold the Biblical view of sexuality while responding with compassion and grace to those affected by homosexuality.
3. Serving people affected by homosexuality through Christian fellowship, discipleship, counselling, support groups, conferences and other forms of Christian help.

Exodus Global Alliance is guided in these missions by the following principles from Scripture.


God clearly says in Scripture that He loves all people and that every person is born with the dignity of being made in God’s image. Scripture also says that every person is born with the devastation of sin. The primary impact of sin’s devastation is that we are born spiritually dead. The devastation of sin also includes sinfulness in our sexual relationships: every person will be tempted to use sexuality in ways that are in conflict with God’s intention. For some people the temptation will be sexual intimacy with the same gender. Homosexual activity and expression are outside of God's design. Homosexual behavior, not the feelings or the temptation, is sinful. The most important problem of those impacted with homosexuality is not sexual, but spiritual – they are spiritually dead and need life, they need a change of spiritual orientation rather than a change of sexual orientation.

God has good news for people who experience same-sex attractions and people involved in homosexuality. Becoming alive in Christ and His disciple is offered to everyone. The redemptive power of Jesus Christ is equally available to all people, including those involved in homosexuality. God’s redemptive work raises us from the dead, giving us spiritual life, frees us from the power of sin, and changes us in ways that may not always be clear to the outside world, but are always powerful and real to the changed man or woman.

The grace of God offered in Jesus Christ is not merely forgiveness for one’s sins but also supernatural life – Christ’s own Life as our life; this results in life empowered by the Holy Spirit. When we believe and rely on Jesus’ work, rather than our own, for our relationship to God and our daily life, then God’s power comes upon us and works in and through us. We are changed, renewed, transformed. We are given new identities, that of beloved children of God. And having His very nature, we rejoice in doing His will in all areas of life.

Change is not a formula or a program. Change occurs through a relationship with Jesus as a result of being made a new person by God. This is accomplished by the work of Jesus. Jesus removes our sin and sets us free from sin’s power. And Jesus himself becomes our life – we receive his very nature. When we understand and believe we are new people, we can then experience such fundamental change that Scriptures describes life in Christ as being born again.

By freedom we mean that we are no longer under the bondage of any sin; instead, we are free to experience who we are in Christ, and who Christ is in us. This leads to a willing submission of one’s sexuality to the Lordship of Christ and integration of our sexuality with our faith. Understanding we are beloved children of God leads to a desire to live in such a manner that is coherent with the nature of Christ in us.
Some claim that homosexuals must change their sexual orientation in order to be accepted by God; others say that such change is not only unnecessary, but also not possible. Exodus Global Alliance believes that the Bible shows us that there are only two kinds of people as far as God is concerned: those who were born in Adam and are spiritually dead; and those who were re-born in Christ and have been made alive by the life of Christ.

This supernatural change then results in many changes including a change in the way we define ourselves, changes in the way we express our sexuality, changes in the social structures and activities that we use to support our identity and changes in our feelings so that they do not control or rule our lives. All of these are external reflections of new life in Christ.

For some, this transformation may include a change in unwanted sexual desires. For others, it may mean the grace to live in obedience in spite of ongoing urges to do what God forbids. Either way, Scripture gives believers assurance that those who walk in the Spirit will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

The church is God’s first choice for reaching and transforming people. The Body of Christ, both local churches and individual Christians, is to reach out to all people. This includes people involved in homosexually and people who experience same-sex attractions, reaching them with the love of Jesus Christ as exhibited by Jesus himself in his ministry on earth. We seek to encourage and equip churches to share a redemptive biblical worldview and be committed to being inviting places of worship for those impacted by homosexuality.

In addition, the church has a key role in helping people experience new life in Christ and its attendant freedom and change. God uses the fellowship, discipleship, worship and prayer of Christians in a local church to enable us to know and experience the new life in Christ. People impacted by homosexuality should receive the same fellowship and discipleship as any other person so that they too can know and experience new life in Christ.

Because people want help and support in their life in Christ, Exodus provides a diverse set of services and resources for individuals, as well as family and friends. These services include Christian fellowship, Christian discipleship, support groups, personal Bible study, individual and pastoral counselling, Christian publications, on-line groups, seminars and conferences. Some of these are provided by Exodus. Some of these are provided by a network of churches, local ministries, and individuals. The particular services and resources vary from place to place according to the gifts of the people in ministry.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Impacted by homosexuality? That's really awful.That makes it sound like an illness or a social problem. It is not an illness or a social problem. The social problem is homophobia. People are impacted by homophobia.

 

[Luce NDs]

Yup, fear of man phobia of hommoe in Greek reversion ... a type form of redaction ...

Yet the bible say 366 times to have no fear (in many different ways) on expression for every day of the year in concern or "an" in one old language.

Could we learn that? No for we rather repeat the same old ... same old thing we always knew ... and not something new ... the basis of stoic -ism! There other words for such institutions of there being nothing Nous ... but it is under the sun ... and must be raised to get anything from it ...

How well do we know the languages of the ancient wise men? I don't know but is this a sign that we're getting stupider in high places? Sort of humbling ... right!

 

[airclean33]

So if morality is objectively set by God wouldn't that make morality subjective to all humankind? Since no one is god then all our open to interpret morality for themselves. Seems like to me morality is set more by society than by god in general.

Hi Dreamerman--Think of this . What was Adam to GOD ? Was He not Son? What was Jesus The Christ ? To GOD? Was He also not Son.You have been born twist from GODS. Yet you think of your self as Human.

 

[airclean33]

dreamerman, I believe that since morality is set by God, all of us should listen to God when it comes to learning about morality and follow him when it comes to living moral lives.

This is very true Pr. Jae well put.

 

[BetteTheRed]

I cannot read this bulls**t over and over and over again.

Can't we have a dead soldiers area where we can let people with 2000 year old, bad, hurtful, stupid opinions, like airclean and unsafe, battle it out with those who have enough stomach for it?

 

[RitaTG]

RitaTG, I don't see anything in the Bible directly saying that simply being LGBTQ is sinful or not. So, there is at least in my mind a certain degree of uncertainty. Some will be quick to claim that the Bible does directly address same-sex relations. However, there is the question of whether or not the relations it speaks against are the same as same-sex relationships are today. Other plausible interpretations of texts have been made which suggest that what is really being spoken against in the Bible are things like inhospitality, gang rape, male prostitution, and idolatry. On the subject of transgenderism, I don't see anything in the Bible for or against it. So RitaTG, I'm not as certain as you on the morality of these things as you are.



I'm not sure.

Fair enough.......
And yes ... for me and other LGBTQ persons it is not just a matter of academic speculation ..... we have to be as certain as we can

 

[RitaTG]

RitaTG ---- Your quote ----Can we at least agree that simply being LGBTQ is NOT a sin?

I understand that you really want to think that ---but it is not as simple as saying it is ------you or the church can't change God's word or the process that man took to create the mess we are all born into ------it is of no fault of ours -----Jesus is well aware of all the issues that plaque mankind since the fall of man -----I am a gay person do you not think I would like to believe that God Blessed me with this ------But I have to be realistic when it comes to God and His word and I have to accept what the results of the fall of man did ----it made me Spiritually dead --and away from God ---doing what I wanted to do without thought or feeling for what moral values a Spiritual God wanted -- If the LGBTQ PERSON is not A Jew by birth are they under God's Laws --No ---but they still are a sinner and disobedient to moral Spiritual standards of right and wrong ---multiple partners ----fornication ---cheating on their present partners --etc ---they are no different than Heterosexual people who are sinners -doing the same thing--away from God ---All done in Sin ----leading to eternal Spiritual Death in the end --

We can deny ---deny ---deny -sin all we want to---but that will not change the fall of man and what it brought to mankind ---sin

This is from 1 Tim 1 verses -8-9 -10 ----Context ----Warning against False Teaching

…8But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,9realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers10and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,…

Law is good, if one uses it lawfully ---the Laws are moral statues that give us a compass of right and wrong actions even if your not under them ------

law is not made for a righteous person ----Accepting Christ frees us from our sins --we have to then stop doing the wrong and strengthen the right ---through Grace

The law is still in place for -----lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,…


Now I found this on the Exodus International ---------http://www.exodusglobalalliance.org/exodus-international-c1447.php

In 2004, Exodus International renamed themselves Exodus Global Alliance.


August 20, 2013
Exodus Global Alliance is a Christian ministry to people impacted by homosexuality.

Exodus Global Alliance has three missions:

1. Proclaiming that faith in Christ and a transformed life is possible through the power of Jesus Christ for people who experience same-sex attractions and people involved in homosexuality.
2. Equipping Christians and churches to uphold the Biblical view of sexuality while responding with compassion and grace to those affected by homosexuality.
3. Serving people affected by homosexuality through Christian fellowship, discipleship, counselling, support groups, conferences and other forms of Christian help.

Exodus Global Alliance is guided in these missions by the following principles from Scripture.


God clearly says in Scripture that He loves all people and that every person is born with the dignity of being made in God’s image. Scripture also says that every person is born with the devastation of sin. The primary impact of sin’s devastation is that we are born spiritually dead. The devastation of sin also includes sinfulness in our sexual relationships: every person will be tempted to use sexuality in ways that are in conflict with God’s intention. For some people the temptation will be sexual intimacy with the same gender. Homosexual activity and expression are outside of God's design. Homosexual behavior, not the feelings or the temptation, is sinful. The most important problem of those impacted with homosexuality is not sexual, but spiritual – they are spiritually dead and need life, they need a change of spiritual orientation rather than a change of sexual orientation.

God has good news for people who experience same-sex attractions and people involved in homosexuality. Becoming alive in Christ and His disciple is offered to everyone. The redemptive power of Jesus Christ is equally available to all people, including those involved in homosexuality. God’s redemptive work raises us from the dead, giving us spiritual life, frees us from the power of sin, and changes us in ways that may not always be clear to the outside world, but are always powerful and real to the changed man or woman.

The grace of God offered in Jesus Christ is not merely forgiveness for one’s sins but also supernatural life – Christ’s own Life as our life; this results in life empowered by the Holy Spirit. When we believe and rely on Jesus’ work, rather than our own, for our relationship to God and our daily life, then God’s power comes upon us and works in and through us. We are changed, renewed, transformed. We are given new identities, that of beloved children of God. And having His very nature, we rejoice in doing His will in all areas of life.

Change is not a formula or a program. Change occurs through a relationship with Jesus as a result of being made a new person by God. This is accomplished by the work of Jesus. Jesus removes our sin and sets us free from sin’s power. And Jesus himself becomes our life – we receive his very nature. When we understand and believe we are new people, we can then experience such fundamental change that Scriptures describes life in Christ as being born again.

By freedom we mean that we are no longer under the bondage of any sin; instead, we are free to experience who we are in Christ, and who Christ is in us. This leads to a willing submission of one’s sexuality to the Lordship of Christ and integration of our sexuality with our faith. Understanding we are beloved children of God leads to a desire to live in such a manner that is coherent with the nature of Christ in us.
Some claim that homosexuals must change their sexual orientation in order to be accepted by God; others say that such change is not only unnecessary, but also not possible. Exodus Global Alliance believes that the Bible shows us that there are only two kinds of people as far as God is concerned: those who were born in Adam and are spiritually dead; and those who were re-born in Christ and have been made alive by the life of Christ.

This supernatural change then results in many changes including a change in the way we define ourselves, changes in the way we express our sexuality, changes in the social structures and activities that we use to support our identity and changes in our feelings so that they do not control or rule our lives. All of these are external reflections of new life in Christ.

For some, this transformation may include a change in unwanted sexual desires. For others, it may mean the grace to live in obedience in spite of ongoing urges to do what God forbids. Either way, Scripture gives believers assurance that those who walk in the Spirit will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

The church is God’s first choice for reaching and transforming people. The Body of Christ, both local churches and individual Christians, is to reach out to all people. This includes people involved in homosexually and people who experience same-sex attractions, reaching them with the love of Jesus Christ as exhibited by Jesus himself in his ministry on earth. We seek to encourage and equip churches to share a redemptive biblical worldview and be committed to being inviting places of worship for those impacted by homosexuality.

In addition, the church has a key role in helping people experience new life in Christ and its attendant freedom and change. God uses the fellowship, discipleship, worship and prayer of Christians in a local church to enable us to know and experience the new life in Christ. People impacted by homosexuality should receive the same fellowship and discipleship as any other person so that they too can know and experience new life in Christ.

Because people want help and support in their life in Christ, Exodus provides a diverse set of services and resources for individuals, as well as family and friends. These services include Christian fellowship, Christian discipleship, support groups, personal Bible study, individual and pastoral counselling, Christian publications, on-line groups, seminars and conferences. Some of these are provided by Exodus. Some of these are provided by a network of churches, local ministries, and individuals. The particular services and resources vary from place to place according to the gifts of the people in ministry.

Wonderful!!! you actually did the most microscopic bit of research?
In all this blah blah blah you never once addressed the failure of Exodus International.
Lots of the usual trope that they pushed and failed at though....
This little group that has emerged from the ashes is destined for the very same failures.
I feel sorry for you .... that you feel that your being gay is a curse ...... I feel sorry for you indeed....
Your approach offers nothing ... just a door barred ...... it has been tried over and over with fatal results for some.
Your approach only offers condemnation for those that cannot meet your spiritual expectations.
Your approach only offers a life of shame, denial, and misery for those that are not "set free" .... like you seem to be....
That would be 99.5% of us....
Seems to me that there was someone who came so that I could have life more abundantly.....
That is what this thread is about.

 

[revjohn]

I cannot read this bulls**t over and over and over again.

Commenting on it doesn't make it go away.

Investing time and energy into another thread is a productive distraction.

 

[RitaTG]

I cannot read this bulls**t over and over and over again.

Can't we have a dead soldiers area where we can let people with 2000 year old, bad, hurtful, stupid opinions, like airclean and unsafe, battle it out with those who have enough stomach for it?

Thank you for your patience Bette ..... but these are the very sort of persons I need to share with.
This is the sort of thing that does so much damage to LGBTQ persons and their families that are stuck in churches that think like this.
These are the persons that lead such thinking and they need to be made aware of the damage they are doing.
This is hard difficult work .... it would seem I am called to it.....

 

[RitaTG]

dreamerman, I believe that since morality is set by God, all of us should listen to God when it comes to learning about morality and follow him when it comes to living moral lives.

Interesting.....
May I suggest you start a thread on that topic?
I would love to discuss that there

 

[BetteTheRed]

Thank you for your patience Bette ..... but these are the very sort of persons I need to share with.
This is the sort of thing that does so much damage to LGBTQ persons and their families that are stuck in churches that think like this.
These are the persons that lead such thinking and they need to be made aware of the damage they are doing.
This is hard difficult work .... it would seem I am called to it.....

But when does it end, Rita? When the last dinosaur is buried? Wouldn't it be more helpful to LGBTQ youth to see that the bulk of society had moved on, and that these ignorant opinions belonged in the same bin as those who espouse racist or sexist beliefs?

 

[BetteTheRed]

What would be our response if airclean or unsafe were on here stating that inter-racial marriage was against their beliefs per the Bible? Would we be 'debating' them this respectfully?

 

[RitaTG]

But when does it end, Rita? When the last dinosaur is buried? Wouldn't it be more helpful to LGBTQ youth to see that the bulk of society had moved on, and that these ignorant opinions belonged in the same bin as those who espouse racist or sexist beliefs?

I have to see this through as long as there are churches that harm LGBTQ youth with their doctrine.
I just have to .....
Yes the beliefs are disgusting and also very damaging ..... the doctrines need to be challenged.
This it seems is work for me .... this is a cause for which a fire burns within me that I cannot ignore.
Please labour on the cause for which a fire burns within your heart.....
There is plenty of work to do to go around
Hugs
Rita

 

[RitaTG]

What would be our response if airclean or unsafe were on here stating that inter-racial marriage was against their beliefs per the Bible? Would we be 'debating' them this respectfully?

Considered replies are always a better way .... even when it is so hard to do.
A harsh answer seldom helps and only solidifies a contrary viewpoint.
Often I miss the mark on that but I am trying.....
Now to protect from such beliefs in the public sphere we have to work for just laws that limits the imposition of those beliefs in public life.
There I work diligently.... and even there ... I am careful with my words.

 

[revjohn]

What would be our response if airclean or unsafe were on here stating that inter-racial marriage was against their beliefs per the Bible? Would we be 'debating' them this respectfully?

Throwing around terms like old, bad, hurtful and stupid is hardly respectful.

I was part of WonderCafe.ca for the length of its run and I have been here at Wondercafe2 since before the doors officially opened and one thing I can say with a great deal of confidence is that our collective online debating skills suck big-time.

When I say, "I cannot count the number of times minds have changed positions because of discussions at WonderCafe" I am not making a hyperbolic statement of a great number of times. I am saying that there is no evidence of anything existing to count.

The only way minds and hearts change on much of the matters we discuss here in earnest is when chickens come home to roost and the topics of discussion go from being abstract and distant to concrete and real.

At most the discussions we have and the ways we comport ourselves while carrying them out might contribute to someone else asking different questions about their presumptions. For the most part all of us stand our ground and budge not at all, at least not while the heat is on.

I imagine that if we were all face to face we might be a little more civil. Of course part of the reason for that would be that we would have so much more actual communication and cues to work with. Text based communication simply fails to tell us everything we need to know in an exchange and some of us have a great propensity to invent intent and meaning that our conversational partners never dreamed of providing.

Top that all off with a rather uniform believe that we all believe we communicate more effectively than we actually manage and we tend to see any problem as what the other brings to the table rather than what we ourselves bring.

None of that appears to improve as the passion grows.

After a while our most heated threads resemble tales told by idiots. They are full of sound and they signify nothing except that people are getting louder and angrier.

 

[BetteTheRed]

Hey, I said the opinions were stupid and hurtful, not the people. These are the very ones from whom originated that awful old canard - love the sinner, hate the sin.

I also said "as respectful". I'm not by nature terribly respectful of beliefs that actively hurt people I love. It's a good question.

If someone were to come on here claiming that inter-racial marriage was against Godde's will, how would we react? Would we maybe suggest that the clock had run out on their beliefs?I'm claiming that no-one can be truly ignorant enough to believe that a) anyone chooses to be other than straight or cisgendered or b) that those so 'punished' by being born non-straight, not cis-gendered, should be further marginalized by being told that they can never have an intimate loving lifetime partnership.

 

[Waterfall]

But when does it end, Rita? When the last dinosaur is buried? Wouldn't it be more helpful to LGBTQ youth to see that the bulk of society had moved on, and that these ignorant opinions belonged in the same bin as those who espouse racist or sexist beliefs?

Nothing ever really gets buried IMO. When you check history we often repeat ourselves in our discriminations. Slavery is gone? It rears it's ugly head even today. Bigotry? Once again appears. Ignorance? well that's a constant. Homosexuality has gone through periods of acceptance in certain societies and then regresses once again. Even youth, who we are counting on to see us through all of this BS, will produce some factions that will focus on the hate and we're off and running once again. Every age will need their "Ritas" to battle prejudices.
I suspect we will always need people to constantly point out that hate should have no place in our society and champion for the underdog of the day. Leaving a cancer unattended causes it to spread.
In this case, we have the cure, LOVE but not everyone wants the cure.

 

[revjohn]

Hey, I said the opinions were stupid and hurtful, not the people. These are the very ones from whom originated that awful old canard - love the sinner, hate the sin.

It's true you did say that. Somehow you think that works and loving the sinner but hating the sin doesn't.

I also said "as respectful". I'm not by nature terribly respectful of beliefs that actively hurt people I love. It's a good question.

And I'm sure that pretty much everyone whose opinions you think stupid and hurtful would also claim to be operating out of love. Do you give them to be not terribly respectful of beliefs that they believe actively hurt people they love?

If someone were to come on here claiming that inter-racial marriage was against Godde's will, how would we react?

As we are conditioned to. Whether that conditioning proves to be helpful or profitable to the conversation would be of little regard.

Would we maybe suggest that the clock had run out on their beliefs?

At least that. I suspect we would couch our objection in the appropriate feel good pejoratives we had immediately close at hand.

I'm claiming that no-one can be truly ignorant enough to believe that a) anyone chooses to be other than straight or cisgendered or b) that those so 'punished' by being born non-straight, not cis-gendered, should be further marginalized by being told that they can never have an intimate loving lifetime partnership.

And you are making that claim based on what you believe which is a mistake. Others here clearly believe differently otherwise we wouldn't have the conversations we do regarding such issues. And claiming that nobody can be truly ignorant enough to believe X you are of course saying that it isn't X which is truly ridiculous but it is the people who believe X that are truly ridiculous.

I believe that runs pretty much full circle.