An article "The church is killing its gay kids"

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Well, I've listened to about 8 uplifting stories from despair to life everlasting. Hardly poison. Posting that the church is killing people - that sounds like poison.
 
Pontifex Geronimo 13 said:
Well, I've listened to about 8 uplifting stories from despair to life everlasting. Hardly poison. Posting that the church is killing people - that sounds like poison.
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Exodus International was rife with such stories .....
And then a bit of peer review and their so called success rate dropped to less that 0.5%
Eventually they had to admit the truth and close .....
Look it up ......
Those "testimonies" .... nope .... not falling for that.....
My ears are not itchy.....
 
Pr. Jae said:
@RitaTG - You don't believe in conversion stories at all? Am I understanding that correctly?
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As usual one ditch or the other Jae.....
No ... that is not what I am saying at all....
What I am saying is that I very much doubt the validity of posts such as these on sites that are very much anti gay.
What was found at Exodus International is that the testimonies were mostly wishful thinking.
If I say it enough maybe it will come true .....
Personally I know the feeling....
 
RitaTG said:
As usual one ditch or the other Jae.....
No ... that is not what I am saying at all....
What I am saying is that I very much doubt the validity of posts such as these on sites that are very much anti gay.
What was found at Exodus International is that the testimonies were mostly wishful thinking.
If I say it enough maybe it will come true .....
Personally I know the feeling....
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The reason I asked was because I was unable to view the first site Pontifex linked to, and just visited the second which seems to be a variety of conversion stories.
 
RitaTG said:
revjohn ...... what better tool would you suggest to address the behaviour problem?
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That we all brush up on our parenting skills.

From observation I notice that some folk who are professionally competent cannot remember to bring the skills that make them so competent in a work context home with them.

My wife who works with special educators and is herself a special educator has a knack for working with children who don't respond to normal ways. Part of that is being incredible empathetic and having a tool box of proven ways to work with. Then she comes home and in dealing with our special needs son is, well, more a frustrated parent than she is a patient teacher.

She isn't alone. I routinely put up with a lot of guff at the Church and am digging deep into wells of patience only to find when I get home I have no stomach for guff and my fuse is seriously short.

Why is that?

Part of it is expectations.

The other part is that home is safe space and it is (I believe) a place where I can drop the masks I routinely wear.

RitaTG said:
my experience ... even locally seems to require an urgent solution or at least a direction to explore.
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From where I sit urgent is a matter of life or death. In that context I am either grabbing the bull by the horns as a first responder or I am deferring to whomever is the first responder and providing them with all the back-up they need. I am not looking for teachable moments nor am I trying to build consensus.

So, for me unless it is someone on a ledge or the like. There is time.

Time to be patient. Time to have long conversations that do not immediately appear to bear fruit but may be planting seeds. There is time to be honest and time to respect those who might disagree.

I respect that somebody far closer to the issue may feel themselves on a ledge and they might feel that my not rushing into things signals that I don't care.

If I don't see them on the ledge then I cannot know they are on it.

Try as we all might we are not good with agreeing to disagree. I know I can get there socially but mentally I'm still wondering how so and so could possibly believe the nonsense they are pushing.

We are also not good at moving conversations out of areas of contention into areas of reconcilliation.

So, maybe we might not agree on whether folk are born with a sexual preference or it is learned. And all the studies that we might throw at one another to support our positions will not budge us from what we hold most dear. (this is just an example). We would probably all agree that individuals should not be assaulted physically, emotionally or spiritually.

It is a given that we probably won't reach consensus on what constitutes physical, emotional or spiritual abuse in certain contexts. We at the very least agree that action should be loving. In a Christian context we know that 1 Corinthians 13 does a bang up job of defining what is loving over and against what is not.

So we can ask, gently, are we keeping records of wrongs? Are we rejoicing at truth? Are we insisting on our own way? Are we trusting? Are we hoping? Answers to those questions can be probed and answers to those questions hold the greatest leverage for change to happen. Of course we also learn that love is patient so we don't expect change to happen overnight.

There are certain contexts where our gay kids are in peril from their Church and their parents.

I don't for a second believe that such contexts are normative. When such contexts reach the media spotlight they are all we see and as such they may be all we know about what is going on in any Church and any family.

My eldest daughter is dating a guy who is an atheist. He is routinely surprised that I as a clergyman am not what he expected a minister to be like.

Rather a compliment that I am not a stereotype.

Of course from another perspective it would be an insult that I do not fulfill the stereotype because it must mean I don't love Jesus if I'm not getting in anyone's face and pointing out to them what great sinner's they are.

I'm quite fine with not being stereotypical.

My daughter's friends all know that I will respect them. I will not make fun of their tats or piercings. I generally do not comment on their clothing though I am prone to some light-hearted teasing. One thing my daughter makes clear is that if any of her friends ever say "O my God" or the like around me I may ask them to tell me about their God. I mean I'm a minister shouldn't I be interested in that kind of thing. So, if her friends don't want to be grilled on their theological preferences they shouldn't bring it up. She has also made it clear that if they are interested and want to ask a question I'll probably give them way more of an answer than they were looking for.

Part of that is simple boundaries. Her friends don't have to apologize for who they are or what they think and I don't have to apologize for who I am and what I think.

Another part of it is that with respect to doctrine the UCCAN looks at it as the starting point for conversation and not a door to slam on conversation.

Other denominations take an altogether more rigid stance with respect to belief and for them doctrine is more end-point than launch pad.

Those are two widely divergent worldviews to operate out of and conversation goes nowhere when one insists that the other worldview be absent from the conversation.
 
Thank you for the wise words revjohn ......
All I want is to stop the needless and harmful hurting.......
We can worry about the theology/viewpoints on the matter later.
It is how those viewpoints are espoused ...especially in a church and home environment that causes incredible damage.
When I have a young one confide in me that they are afraid of family and friends because of negative religious viewpoints and despair about their future I see their need as urgent.
I may not be very good at it but I am trying to start the conversation.
Start with the heart ..... start with being aware that what is said and how it is said can and does cause terrible harm.
Arguing theology is secondary ..... the heart first is my goal.
But all being said ... when I am confided in .... yes the need is urgent.
 
Pr. Jae said:
The reason I asked was because I was unable to view the first site Pontifex linked to, and just visited the second which seems to be a variety of conversion stories.
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When Exodus shut down they admitted that they did no good at all, that their "therapy" was nothing more than psychological torture. These groups don't "cure" someone of being gay or transgendered (there is nothing to cure) but they do create self hatred leading to people at best going back into the closet for a while, at worst suicide. Four states and counting have outlawed sending minors to such "therapy". The day when the last of these is shuttered for good can't come soon enough.
 
Jon71 said:
When Exodus shut down they admitted that they did no good at all, that their "therapy" was nothing more than psychological torture. These groups don't "cure" someone of being gay or transgendered (there is nothing to cure) but they do create self hatred leading to people at best going back into the closet for a while, at worst suicide. Four states and counting have outlawed sending minors to such "therapy". The day when the last of these is shuttered for good can't come soon enough.
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Jon, thank you for that reminder of that aspect of Exodus International history.

As I've shared here before here at WC2, I do not believe that person A can cause person B to suicide. If person B suicides, that is person B's choice. Albeit person A should not abuse person B, and if they know person B is thinking of suicide should offer encouragement and hope, and direct them to appropriate counseling.
 
Learning is a pain some like to administer pain just for the fun of it ... consider the Lards of Rome ... some Machiavellian Satyr arose from it ... some took it to be truth and simply followed in queue ...
 
Pr. Jae said:
Jon, thank you for that reminder of that aspect of Exodus International history.

As I've shared here before here at WC2, I do not believe that person A can cause person B to suicide. If person B suicides, that is person B's choice. Albeit person A should not abuse person B, and if they know person B is thinking of suicide should offer encouragement and hope, and direct them to appropriate counseling.
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That may come down to how we define "cause". If person B is struggling and person A starts telling them that they are a mistake, that have to make impossible changes about the very core of who they are in order to not be an abomination, then I think person A has real culpability for the consequences. What you put into people heads has an impact and each of us can choose to either put love and acceptance out there or we can put dogma and condemnation out there. I do believe we will be held accountable by God on how we treat our fellow human beings. I can't recall chapter and verse but the New Testament does talk about either being a stepping stone or a stumbling block. I believe that's in the Bible for a reason, God does not want us to be stumbling blocks, or worse.
 
I can tell you other people can drive one to suicide ...

My parents behaviour when I was a child made me choose to not be part of it ... I was a mite away from calling it quits ... until bugged by conscience ... something is was told didn't exist!

Consciences' Ness is a dark space you should listen to ... sort of like the deep horn of Gabriel ... lo' waves ... like ZZZZZ's in the myth ... somnolent beans? They'll waken when sub Merced ... dunked in the fire of life? Some are sloe to learn ...

Tis a sad long story ... creation needed somewhere to put it ...
 
Jon71 said:
When Exodus shut down they admitted that they did no good at all, that their "therapy" was nothing more than psychological torture. These groups don't "cure" someone of being gay or transgendered (there is nothing to cure) but they do create self hatred leading to people at best going back into the closet for a while, at worst suicide. Four states and counting have outlawed sending minors to such "therapy". The day when the last of these is shuttered for good can't come soon enough.
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--Hi Jon71-- I don't believe what you"v posted. In my son"s church in the states. There are at least 3 People who at one time walked in the Gay life style. Who now are in a marriage, in a hetero sexual life style" who now have children of there own . They are very happy I am told. To my way of thinking . All Praise is GODS.
 
Is a gae person in church like Christ in his closet praying ... always in need of a cover-up as truth is not known ... knowledge is denied.

Now if God is pure love or desire ... what name would pure cognizance receive in the field of free wiles ... the devil may come yet ...
 
Jon71 said:
That may come down to how we define "cause". If person B is struggling and person A starts telling them that they are a mistake, that have to make impossible changes about the very core of who they are in order to not be an abomination, then I think person A has real culpability for the consequences. What you put into people heads has an impact and each of us can choose to either put love and acceptance out there or we can put dogma and condemnation out there. I do believe we will be held accountable by God on how we treat our fellow human beings. I can't recall chapter and verse but the New Testament does talk about either being a stepping stone or a stumbling block. I believe that's in the Bible for a reason, God does not want us to be stumbling blocks, or worse.
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Jon, we actually agree on a lot here. We agree that person A should not be telling person B that they are a mistake, and that they need to change the person who they essentially are. We agree that person A is in error if they're not being loving but are just consumed with judging person B for who they are. We agree that God will hold us each to account for how we treat others. Our major difference seems to be that I hold that ultimately person B is responsible for what person B does to person B. Yes, person A can feed person B all kinds of poisonous messages. However, it's up to person B to decide to listen to those messages or not. Consider our friend @RitaTG. I'm sure it's possible she's had many hate-filled messages slung her way. Yet, she doesn't suicide. Why? Because she chooses not to let those messages consume her. I will also share (I think I have already here at WC2 but anyway) that during the time my family lived in Alberta, my middle son had racial slurs hurled at him in high school. Yet, he didn't suicide, because he's proud of who he is. If everyone acts out of unconditional love for both others and themselves - I think that's key.
 
airclean33 said:
--Hi Jon71-- I don't believe what you"v posted. In my son"s church in the states. There are at least 3 People who at one time walked in the Gay life style. Who now are in a marriage, in a hetero sexual life style" who now have children of there own . They are very happy I am told. To my way of thinking . All Praise is GODS.
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Yes, I've also known people who have lived the "gay lifestyle" who have gotten married to members of the opposite sex and have had what seem to be happy marriages. However airclean, what Jon was talking about was a "cure" from being gay. There is, I continue to maintain, a difference between behavior and orientation.
 
Pr. Jae said:
Yes, I've also known people who have lived the "gay lifestyle" who have gotten married to members of the opposite sex and have had what seem to be happy marriages. However airclean, what Jon was talking about was a "cure" from being gay. There is, I continue to maintain, a difference between behavior and orientation.
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Hi Pr. Jae-- may I say I.M.H.O GOD is The cure. I feel Jae the problem in most" church"s today is . The GOD of Jesus, is not the teaching you will get. You Will Get The God belief of that Denomination.You will not be taught of the infill of GODS Holy Spirit.As Jesus told us to look forward to. How is one to follow a GOD that is not with them?How can you show others the way , when you yourself don't know it?
 
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