The Revelation of Jesus Christ

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The first verse of the Book of Revelation (also called the Apocalypse of John) is Revelation 1:1

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him,
to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;
and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"​

The opening line says plainly, “The Revelation of Jesus Christ”

I would think that it should be the most studied Script in the Bible.

It pulls the curtain back on governments, religion, money, power, and false peace and shows you who is really behind the scenes.

Is the Revelation “too symbolic to understand"?

Does Revelation offend people because it has no respect for human authority?

Kings are judged. Merchants weep. Religious systems collapse. The Church Age ends.

Whatever one’s theology might be on the SCRIPT of Revelation it appears to me that it is moving on schedule.

“To show (his) bond-servants the things which must soon take place.”


 
I’m guessing it is probably the most worshipped script, if not studied, in the bible these days. Some say putting it in there was an error. I can see why. Fundamentalist Christians seem to read it more than Jesus’ own words - which makes it like self-fulfilling prophecy rather than metaphysical. Revelationists.
I find it rather violent and harsh and doesn’t sound like Jesus.
 
Would the present look different if the original council of men who decided, selected different books for the New Testsment and/ or in the order they were written?
 
I find it rather violent and harsh and doesn’t sound like Jesus.
It doesn't sound like the Jesus you imagine.

It does sound like the Jesus I imagine.

Revelation warns everyone:

Beware the seductive pull of corrupt power, exploitation, and moral compromise—they lead to ruin.

Stay vigilant, pursue justice, and recognize that no human empire is eternal.

Revelation is a profound literary and ethical alert about human nature and societal patterns.

Studying it closely sharpens awareness of these dangers in any era.

It is relevant far beyond the church - not unlike the Jesus I imagine.
 
Beware the seductive pull of corrupt power, exploitation, and moral compromise—they lead to ruin.

Stay vigilant, pursue justice, and recognize that no human empire is eternal.

Revelation is a profound literary and ethical alert about human nature and societal patterns.

Studying it closely sharpens awareness of these dangers in any era.

It is relevant far beyond the church - not unlike the Jesus I imagine.
That's A reading of it. Not everyone reads it that way. It's probably closer to what I would get from it, but the Christians who actually pay the most attention to it tend to be the ones who see actual world events in it. Putin is the anti-Christ or the EU is the multi-headed dragon or SIN numbers are the mark of the beast and things like that. They go in looking for specifics of their time, not a broader message.

In reality, to my historical eye, it's mostly a call to the Christian community of that time (possibly the persecution under Domitian) to stay strong and faithful because there's a wonderful new world to come. And there was. A wonderful new world where they got to be persecutors and empire builders. Which is, I guess, where you interpretation comes into play. Though I think there's room for that message of encouragement, too. When times get tough, persevere in your faith. The kingdom will be there at the end.

As an aside, I have actually been to the chapel on Patmos that marks the cave where John traditionally lived when he wrote it. Interesting spot. No photos allowed inside but I think I have a couple of the entrance that I'll scout up.
 
This is an interesting discussion with a historian putting it into context. It was meant for a first century Jewish followers of Jesus audience, not a gentile modern one, and what it was asking of people was difficult and potentially violent. Interpreting it as universal and now has caused many problems. That’s why some don’t thing it should’ve been put into the NT.

 
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Though I think there's room for that message of encouragement, too. When times get tough, persevere in your faith. The kingdom will be there at the end.
Absolutely.

I have faith that something more mysterious than myself is what allows me to persevere Period.

"The Mystery" by any other name remains mystical to me.

"The Beast" by any other name reveals itself throughout history.
 
This is an interesting discussion with a historian putting it into context. It was meant for a first century Jewish followers of Jesus audience, not a gentile modern one, and what it was asking of people was difficult and potentially violent. Interpreting it as universal and now has caused many problems. That’s why some don’t thing it should’ve been put into the NT.

As notable a personage as Martin Luther had issues with it so that's not even a new thing. But with it in the canon and not likely to be leaving, the problem then becomes how to interpret it in a modern context. Simply ignoring it then leaves it in the hands of those who use it as a weapon. There's certainly ways of interpreting this "revelation of Jesus Christ" without going all fundamentalist "we must prepare the way by starting WWIII". Taking that historical look at the book is part of that battle. If you realize what it actually meant in context, then you can recontextualize it in a way that makes more sense.
 
Simply ignoring it then leaves it in the hands of those who use it as a weapon.
That is why I capitalized the word SCRIPT in reference to it.

Revelation's resistance literature against empire is a double-edged weapon/tool/sword.

It has been co-opted by some to justify authority and by others to fuel paranoia.

It is the Lord of the Rings as far as Biblical Blockbusters go IMO
 
Why wouldn’t a just and merciful God be able to stop the beast without allowing Christians, or anyone doing the best they can, to be persecuted and endure hardship?

Theoretically, if God created it all he can fix it all. If he made the laws of the universe he can change the laws of the universe, without giving notice, without making us suffer.

As time goes on, more and more I see Christians projecting their own image onto God by their interpretation of text which was an effort to explain things they didn’t understand and/ or to speak in code about the harsh world around them at the time.

Why would an all loving God set us up for tests that we could fail, if he loves humanity? People have no problem doing so, though, which is why they’ve ascribed that quality to God in our image. Maybe that’s the problem. We’ve set ourselves up by not dropping all that and just believing in caring for one another. By doing that we can strive to project the kind of God that resonates with the best of our hearts, who everyone can feel grateful for.

Maybe that’s heresy to some, but I think they’re valid questions.
 
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That is why I capitalized the word SCRIPT in reference to it.

Revelation's resistance literature against empire is a double-edged weapon/tool/sword.

It has been co-opted by some to justify authority and by others to fuel paranoia.

It is the Lord of the Rings as far as Biblical Blockbusters go IMO

Like a sword stuck in a stone? No apologies needed as the edge is buried ... in a difficult place ...

Ever try and unravel, figure out a difficult solo? Therein miasma ... cluster energy? Fest ...
 

If we let that sink in does the item become profound and it gets darker and more mysterious ... when sized down! Humble? So it appears in some ends ... expressions vary depending on how clothed ... Clothos? O'sum ... when it doesn't add up ... like relativity in a chance state ...
 
Why would an all loving God set us up for tests that we could fail, if he loves humanity?
If God is just, why does restraint appear to be gone?

Here is one perspective on that - which kind of fits with Revelation scripture.

Throughout Scripture, God does not act only by sudden intervention.

God often acts by withholding restraint.

Restraint is mercy. It is the pressure God places on human hearts, institutions, and societies to prevent evil from fully expressing itself. It keeps corruption partial. It limits damage. It slows collapse.

And like all mercy, it is granted, not owed.

When restraint is removed, it is not because God has grown weak or distracted. It is because judgment has moved into a different phase. What was once held back is now permitted to speak for itself.

Three times the text (Romans 1) says God gave them over.

First to their desires.
Then to dishonorable passions.
Then to a debased mind.

This progression matters.
God does not force rebellion.
God allows it to complete its work.

Judgment in Romans 1 does not arrive with thunder.

It rises from within the human heart.
What people once hid, they now justify.
What once required secrecy now demands affirmation.
What once felt wrong now feels normal.

This is not freedom - It is exposure.

Genesis 6 follows the same pattern.

Violence filled the earth.
Corruption was no longer exceptional.
Every intention of the thoughts of man’s heart was only evil continually.

What is often missed is what comes before the flood.

God waits.

Evil must be allowed to mature.
Corruption must become unmistakable.
Normalization is the final signal.
When wickedness no longer needs defense, restraint has already begun to lift.

Only then does judgment come.

Restraint Is Removed Before Judgment

God judges openly.
God does not end history in confusion.
God does not destroy while excuses still sound reasonable.

Restraint is removed so that every mouth is stopped.
So that blame collapses.
So that evil stands exposed as choice, not accident.

This is not cruelty.

It is clarity.

God does not rush judgment because evil once unrestrained, indicts itself.

When restraint is removed, strange things follow.

Institutions decay in the open.

Justice delays feel intentional.

Power stops pretending to be moral.

This does not mean God has abandoned the world.

It means God has stopped shielding it from itself.

Exposure is not the absence of God.

It is often the final warning before judgment.

The Weight Carried by the Faithful

This is where many believers grow weary.

Truth is visible, but resolution is delayed.

Discernment is sharpened, but relief does not come.

The tension feels heavy because it is real.

You are not wrong to feel it.

Scripture never promises that understanding will immediately bring comfort.

Often it brings endurance.

The righteous are not called to rescue collapsing systems.

They are not tasked with restoring institutions God is allowing to be revealed.

They are called to remain faithful.

To speak truth without panic.

To obey without compromise.

To endure even when faithfulness brings loss rather than influence.

Restraint may be gone.

Obedience is not optional.

God removes restraint before God removes regimes.

Exposure precedes judgment.

Silence precedes collapse.

What looks like abandonment is often preparation.

Do not panic.

Do not chase power.

Do not compromise to preserve comfort.

God is not absent in these moments.

God is allowing the evil to stand without interference.

That is judgment in plain sight.

The reason I started this thread in the first place is because of the Epstein files release.

Is there another judgement coming? Here's hoping.
 
Why would God allow evil in the first place is my question? None of this would have to happen or even be relevant. If he created the potential for it why is it humanity’s fault?

As for the Epstein files, the bible is full of child brides and concubines and incest and bondage and slavery and - male access to Lot’s daughters representing “ hospitality” - etc etc etc - it’s very debauched and misogynist and he supposedly wrote it. Holy debauchery? No. It’s all about what not to do - but then to fundamentalists it’s a road map of religious instruction, while they take over society with demands of superiority. From that perspective Epstein and company were just being biblical. It was God’s idea. It’s in there.

If the world goes to war it won’t get better. The sexual abuse of women is a tool, a weapon of war.


It’s very hard to reconcile the bible with good conscience, often. Using it as a tool to do so creates cognitive dissonance. Revelation, God’s judgment - who is the kind of god who wrote all that to judge human faults if he made humans that way (perverse, violent, selfish, vindictive just like him?) - that’s not justice. Maybe it’s not God. It’s not love.

My question is…if he created the pain and the potential for humans to cause it why can’t he just clean up the mess and heal hearts and minds and reset - zippity zap -without judgment? Fair question. Because a loving God, rather than an abusive father figure, could do that. A living, loving God would have the power to do that.
 
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Revelation is a Love story of a Loving God who is bringing Justice to His wicked Creation who all by them selves have rebelled against Him and He is fixing what we all by our selves did to his once beautiful paradise ---and keeping His covenant with his Chosen nation ------ saving them in the end ---
 
Revelation is a Love story of a Loving God who is bringing Justice to His wicked Creation who all by them selves have rebelled against Him and He is fixing what we all by our selves did to his once beautiful paradise ---and keeping His covenant with his Chosen nation ------ saving them in the end ---
Why would God create wicked children? How could he? To his own wicked creation, you say? Creating something bad then punishing it. That is not love.
 
Revelation is a Love story of a Loving God who is bringing Justice to His wicked Creation who all by them selves have rebelled against Him and He is fixing what we all by our selves did to his once beautiful paradise ---and keeping His covenant with his Chosen nation ------ saving them in the end ---
No not really.
 
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