Expansion of MAID delayed until after next election

[BetteTheRed]

I'd also like to point out that pain is only part of the potential torture of the end of life. One of the early proponents of MAiD was Dr. Don Lowy. He had brain cancer. One of the symptoms was an overwhelming noise in his head. Loud, like a train roaring through, he described it. Like tinnitus on steroids.

Or end stage ALS? Not much pain, per se, but at the end, you're either on a ventilator or you suffocate.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Curious why minutes or hours? Should someone have to suffer for days whilst they are dying from ALS or end state cancer

To keep them out of pain, in hospice. Otherwise those cheaper “deliverables” you referred to will be all that’s available soon enough, nobody will be allowed to go through a compassionate dying process “the long way”. It’ll just be wham-bam off ya go “but I’m not dead yet!” (Monty Python not so funny in reality) for everybody soon enough - and if you don’t think that’s not being considered in our current healthcare crisis think again. DwD is crawling all over it and up in it.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I'd also like to point out that pain is only part of the potential torture of the end of life. One of the early proponents of MAiD was Dr. Don Lowy. He had brain cancer. One of the symptoms was an overwhelming noise in his head. Loud, like a train roaring through, he described it. Like tinnitus on steroids.

Or end stage ALS? Not much pain, per se, but at the end, you're either on a ventilator or you suffocate.

Yes you’ve used that example before because this really is a big hamster wheel.

Assuming there was literally nothing else to help then maybe he’d be one of those exceptions. But that should not be the rule for the expediency and “deliverables” concern I already brought up. They should need to apply for special dispensation to have MAiD earlier in unique cases - and it shouldn’t be too easy to get that.

Interestingly it was people with physically disabling conditions that were used to bring about the law over disability rights groups (human rights) objections, which upended our rights - not people dying of cancer. Why did they not get testimony from end stage cancer patients if that was the priority in passing the law? The answer is because they wanted to target disabled people, including mentally ill people, for death, with the law. If you want to know what their real agenda was and is just look at the slippery slope thus far.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I think for me, that is like someone vehemently against abortion pushing women back into clothes hangers and dirty alley abortionists.

It’s not. I mean I know that was hyped but it’s mostly a fallacy. Suicide is something that should be prevented no matter what. If suicide hotlines are referring people to MAiD providers there’s clearly a problem.

Also, if people had to pay for it, so money goes back into others’ ability to get life saving treatment and services - then let the rich folks pay for theirs if they insist on going out early, so that poor people (which many disabled people and mentally ill people are) are not ensnared because of them, and have a hope in this world. The more I mention that idea the more I like it.

 

[JayneWonders]

You would deny someone maid based on their ability to pay? Since when are you for 2tier health care?

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

You would deny someone maid based on their ability to pay? Since when are you for 2tier health care?

Yeah as a safeguard to marginalized people being exploited. If they have to pay it won’t be offered inappropriately. It will be tracked properly. But maybe there are experts with reasons why that could be exploited too and then I’d say no. If it led to 2 tier healthcare then no. But MAiD isn’t healthcare. It’s just death. That’s why I suggested that those chosen deaths put money back into actual healthcare. Then it wouldn’t be 2 tier: Let MAiD if it has to exist, be an expensive out of pocket procedure, and let it only be available for free for people who’ve tried everything else and, had everything else to try. Keep people comfortable until the end like before and let the money for deaths get diverted toward lives. That’s what I think should happen.

 

[WhyCzar]

Also, if people had to pay for it, so money goes back into others’ ability to get life saving treatment and services - then let the rich folks pay for theirs if they insist on going out early,

The rich folks already pay more for UNIVERSAL health care than the poor folks if "Health Care" is paid from tax revenue, and most of Canada’s tax revenue comes from personal income tax?

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

The rich folks already pay more for UNIVERSAL health care than the poor folks if "Health Care" is paid from tax revenue, and most of Canada’s tax revenue comes from personal income tax?

So? Make rich people pay like they pay for naturopthaths and hyperbaric oxygen therapy and stuff. Because MAiD isn’t medical care. I think a strong argument can be made, that it’s not healthcare because after a MAiD treatment your body will literally be the least healthy it’s ever been, guaranteed. If they want it, and qualify for Track 1, make them pay out of pocket. Sarcasm no sarcasm. It’s just ending life.

If someone makes a fair and reasoned case against that idea, I am not locked into it.

For the record I don’t think it means people have to suffer if good palliative care is available to them. In rare cases maybe and those can be determined more carefully than even now. Or else, out of pocket expense.

But I digress because nobody is proposing this. And nobody is fighting track 1 officially. I don’t need to go on that tangent here.

 

[JayneWonders]

Medicine is about relieving suffering.

As such, MAiD fits.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Medicine is about relieving suffering.

As such, MAiD fits.

No that’s not the definition of medicine.
It’s (Oxford):

1.
the science or practice of the diagnosis, treatment, and prevention of disease (in technical use often taken to exclude surgery).
"he made distinguished contributions to pathology and medicine"

2. a compound or preparation used for the treatment or prevention of disease, especially a drug or drugs taken by mouth.

You can’t say it’s 2, because MAiD doesn’t treat or prevent disease it kills the person with the disease.

It’s not healthcare either because it doesn’t help restore a person’s body to health. Quite the opposite.

 

[Luce NDs]

Medicine is about relieving suffering.

As such, MAiD fits.

I'm told there are many that are hesitant to relieve pain in their companions in this state of awareness! They love to be a pain to their neighbors ... just to prove a point about supremacy!

Isn't that superior ...

 

[JayneWonders]

The relief of suffering and the cure of disease must be seen as twin obligations of a medical profession that is truly dedicated to the care of the sick.

The nature of suffering and the goals of medicine - PubMed The nature of suffering and the goals of medicine - PubMed

 

[WhyCzar]

If they want it, and qualify for Track 1, make them pay out of pocket

In Canada's taxpayer-funded socialized health care system personal income taxes are deducted at source and as far as I know there is no opt out provision. I would consider that as out of pocket as it gets.

 

[BetteTheRed]

There is a thing called "palliative sedation". My experience with it is mixed, because sometimes it feels like, "let's not hear them screaming".

 

[Northwind]

Anyone who is not facing death, whether through a "garden variety" cancer diagnosis or through a stage 4 diagnosis has no right to presume what such a person can do. Anymore than a non-disabled person can dictate how a disabled person should live.

Suggesting there be a fee for MAID or for rich people is promoting a two tiered health system. That is against the Canada Health Act.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Anyone who is not facing death, whether through a "garden variety" cancer diagnosis or through a stage 4 diagnosis has no right to presume what such a person can do. Anymore than a non-disabled person can dictate how a disabled person should live.

Suggesting there be a fee for MAID or for rich people is promoting a two tiered health system. That is against the Canada Health Act.

It was just an idea. It’s not happening but I keep getting asked to defend it and I’m actually not really set on it so I don’t want to debate/ defend it. Just imagining alternatives to what we have that could be safer and fairer for marginalized people who can’t self advocate well and don’t have the services or proper housing, etc that they need. They are really truly at risk of death too early. Even a small percentage who die from MAiD too early because of that is not ok. But it will grow.

Disabled people also get terminal illnesses. They need to be able to try to beat the odds. MAiD track 1 needs to be revised and better safeguarded somehow imo. Reasonsbly foreseeable death needs to be defined by time that allows for improvement, and not by illness exacerbated by social circumstance whatsoever. So that there’s no chance of coercion or pressure on anyone and everyone has equal options to live first - including healthy circumstances to heal in. Like I told you - I was really concerned and disturbed by the recovery ward I was in that had so many with nowhere to go after disabling injuries and serious illnesses. I fear for the lives of people in that situation.

But the issue at hand is track 2 so we shouldn’t be putting the cart before the horse (not sure the metaphor fits the right way around but I can’t think of a better one).

The problem is these better suggestions only work if we were securely in peacetime. Wartime adds more layers of serious concern.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Jenyfer Hatch from the Simons ad. She had been opposed to MAiD then gave up over economic circumstances iirc and they offered to glamorize her which I think was manipulative, and propaganda. I don’t blame her for it. There will be more in similar circumstances that we haven’t or won’t hear about. That’s not ok.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

It was just an idea. It’s not happening but I keep getting asked to defend it and I’m actually not really set on it so I don’t want to debate/ defend it. Just imagining alternatives to what we have that could be safer and fairer for marginalized people who can’t self advocate well and don’t have the services or proper housing, etc that they need. They are really truly at risk of death too early. Even a small percentage who die from MAiD too early because of that is not ok. But it will grow.

Disabled people also get terminal illnesses. They need to be able to try to beat the odds. MAiD track 1 needs to be revised and better safeguarded somehow imo. Reasonsbly foreseeable death needs to be defined by time that allows for improvement, and not by illness exacerbated by social circumstance whatsoever. So that there’s no chance of coercion or pressure on anyone and everyone has equal options to live first - including healthy circumstances to heal in. Like I told you - I was really concerned and disturbed by the recovery ward I was in that had so many with nowhere to go after disabling injuries and serious illnesses. I fear for the lives of people in that situation.

But the issue at hand is track 2 so we shouldn’t be putting the cart before the horse (not sure the metaphor fits the right way around but I can’t think of a better one).

The problem is these better suggestions only work if we were securely in peacetime. Wartime adds more layers of serious concern.

Reasonably foreseeable was always a non-medical term. It needs to be reasonably foreseeable natural death at minimum. And that natural death shouldn’t be allowed to be accelerated by socioeconomics. That’s pressure, not choice, on either track.

Again, deferring to the UN and the lived experiences they base their concerns on, too.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

What happens to the involuntarily detained who have or get cancer? How will we know for sure? I’m concerned about them under track 2 but abuses of power under track 1 (because these patients have their right of choice and self advocacy removed) shouldn’t be overlooked in that scenario either. I’m saying, it’s all very dangerous and the forecast doesn’t look good for society.

 

[Luce NDs]

Anyone who is not facing death, whether through a "garden variety" cancer diagnosis or through a stage 4 diagnosis has no right to presume what such a person can do. Anymore than a non-disabled person can dictate how a disabled person should live.

Suggesting there be a fee for MAID or for rich people is promoting a two tiered health system. That is against the Canada Health Act.

But can we really deny there is a multitiered system among the stacked odds? Who stacked these things ... those demanding a "better-than-thou" status?

Who will humble themselves to an understanding position? Is there nothing as hated as information about distasteful topics? The search for pleasure goes awry ... that's life ... and I for one feel it slipping away ... the psyche appears to go first as I've always seemed to have differential thoughts ...

Com Ci com Sa ... light pools, or dark? Goodness ... palls ... as shades! Maybe Ba'aLs as midnight sun ... ellipses ... gap-eth! There is this great unknown that swallows everything up-there ...

So we Don the duck ... and dip ... to your neighbor ... curtsy? It may be a natural curvature that hollow ... in Nordic that's d' ELLE ... flakes gather there out of the wind ... as I and K doubled as Ӝ ... reflective? Some say it may be I X or even X I if observed the other way ...

Your choice 9Muses or the 4 the coming ... when 2 and 3 are gathered ...

Nothing works without a goth story ... that's mysterious and dark! There are those that believe black does not exist until they look up at what comes down as a veil ... the blanket effect of a broad myth in essence! Wide and spreading ... fat chance ...

The story must be examined in 'ole form ... mortals are not equitable ... they equalize poorly ... they can't help themselves because of what's unknown ...

Consider psychopathy ... it is mysterious!