The Joys of John
- Thread starter paradox3
- Start date
Welcome to Wondercafe2!
A community where we discuss, share, and have some fun together. Join today and become a part of it!
unsafe
Well-Known Member
So after Jesus feed the 5,000 and He and Disciples went to the other side of the river ---many from the crowd gets into their boats and go to where Jesus is -----
they said to Him, Rabbi! When did You come here?
AMPC
26 Jesus answered them, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, you have been searching for Me, not because you saw the miracles and signs but because you were fed with the loaves and were filled and satisfied.
I say ----While Material Bread can fill us and satisfy our Hunger and sustain our Physical bodies while we are here on this earth----it can't satisfy our Spiritual Hunger nor can it fill us with our Spiritual needs here on earth ----
These people following Jesus were following Him for their own selfish reasons ----they could have food to keep them full and satisfied and they saw Him as their King to led them out of the Romans rule over them ----
When we see a sign that says ----Hey ---Free food and drink here today at this rally ---many go just to fill their bellies and water it down ----
Laboring after the Spiritual bread that gives eternal life is more important than filling our stomachs with material bread that perishes and decays ------
Jesus is the only one who can provide us with our Spiritual bread ----as God the Father has set His seal on him and He is authorized to be the provider of the spiritual life giving bread
So they just don't get it and rightly so ---as they not after eternal bread ---their hearts are still hardened to understanding the message Jesus is trying to convey to them ---
They want to know what Works they need to do to work God ----
---and Jesus tells them they need to Believe in Him ---
29 Jesus replied, that you believe in the One Whom He has sent [that you cleave to, trust, rely on, and have faith in His Messenger].
I say -----The right Faith is needed -----then you have access to God's Grace -----Grace always comes through Faith----
And again this belief is not just a surface belief ---like an outward opinion or expression ---this belief is a deeper inward faith that cleaves to the truth ---and trusts and relies on the and follows Jesus with deep faith that is grounded and rooted in Him =
Here again ----their are showing their human faith ----believing is seeing through signs and wonders ---They have no idea what spiritual faith is ----as they cannot grasp the Spiritual message Jesus is giving them ----
And that is true today for many not just Christian people but for the Ministers and Priests trying to teach us about the Faith -----they themselves have no idea what God's Faith really is -----
The Blind leading the Blind on the right Faith in most churches today ----in my view ---
This verse is Important for us to get ---
37 All whom My Father gives (entrusts) to Me will come to Me; and the one who comes to Me I will most certainly not cast out [I will never, no never, reject one of them who comes to Me].
I say -------We humans cannot ever say We found or came to God ------As We Humans have to be Drawn by the Father and we have to accept that Drawing to come to Jesus -----
God's Drawing and our acceptance of this drawing is the very first step in the Salvation process -----God is a God of Order ----there is an orderly process to in the steps for Salvation
Jesus Tells the people that he has come down from Heaven to do His Father's will ---The people find fault with what Jesus is saying ---as they remember Him as the Son of Joseph
So they are in unbelief --even after all the signs and wonders that have seen
Jesus then says again and this is the second time this is said in this passage ---so this is very important for people to get ---
44 No one is able to come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me attracts and draws him and gives him the desire to come to Me, and [then] I will raise him up [from the dead] at the last day.
I say -------The rest of theses verses speak clearly and plainly for themselves --in my view
All about the Flesh and Blood ----and taking it in
And of course the people have no clue about the spiritual meaning of what Jesus is saying ----to them it probably would be horrifying -------
55 For My flesh is true and genuine food, and My blood is true and genuine drink.
56 He who feeds on My flesh and drinks My blood dwells continually in Me, and I [in like manner dwell continually] in him.
57 Just as the living Father sent Me and I live by (through, because of) the Father, even so whoever continues to feed on Me [whoever takes Me for his food and is nourished by Me] shall [in his turn] live through and because of Me.
58 This is the Bread that came down from heaven. It is not like the manna which our forefathers ate, and yet died; he who takes this Bread for his food shall live forever.
I say ----Major Spiritual understanding needed here with these verses =====
they said to Him, Rabbi! When did You come here?
AMPC
26 Jesus answered them, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, you have been searching for Me, not because you saw the miracles and signs but because you were fed with the loaves and were filled and satisfied.
I say ----While Material Bread can fill us and satisfy our Hunger and sustain our Physical bodies while we are here on this earth----it can't satisfy our Spiritual Hunger nor can it fill us with our Spiritual needs here on earth ----
These people following Jesus were following Him for their own selfish reasons ----they could have food to keep them full and satisfied and they saw Him as their King to led them out of the Romans rule over them ----
When we see a sign that says ----Hey ---Free food and drink here today at this rally ---many go just to fill their bellies and water it down ----
Laboring after the Spiritual bread that gives eternal life is more important than filling our stomachs with material bread that perishes and decays ------
Jesus is the only one who can provide us with our Spiritual bread ----as God the Father has set His seal on him and He is authorized to be the provider of the spiritual life giving bread
So they just don't get it and rightly so ---as they not after eternal bread ---their hearts are still hardened to understanding the message Jesus is trying to convey to them ---
They want to know what Works they need to do to work God ----
---and Jesus tells them they need to Believe in Him ---
29 Jesus replied, that you believe in the One Whom He has sent [that you cleave to, trust, rely on, and have faith in His Messenger].
I say -----The right Faith is needed -----then you have access to God's Grace -----Grace always comes through Faith----
And again this belief is not just a surface belief ---like an outward opinion or expression ---this belief is a deeper inward faith that cleaves to the truth ---and trusts and relies on the and follows Jesus with deep faith that is grounded and rooted in Him =
Here again ----their are showing their human faith ----believing is seeing through signs and wonders ---They have no idea what spiritual faith is ----as they cannot grasp the Spiritual message Jesus is giving them ----
And that is true today for many not just Christian people but for the Ministers and Priests trying to teach us about the Faith -----they themselves have no idea what God's Faith really is -----
The Blind leading the Blind on the right Faith in most churches today ----in my view ---
This verse is Important for us to get ---
37 All whom My Father gives (entrusts) to Me will come to Me; and the one who comes to Me I will most certainly not cast out [I will never, no never, reject one of them who comes to Me].
I say -------We humans cannot ever say We found or came to God ------As We Humans have to be Drawn by the Father and we have to accept that Drawing to come to Jesus -----
God's Drawing and our acceptance of this drawing is the very first step in the Salvation process -----God is a God of Order ----there is an orderly process to in the steps for Salvation
Jesus Tells the people that he has come down from Heaven to do His Father's will ---The people find fault with what Jesus is saying ---as they remember Him as the Son of Joseph
So they are in unbelief --even after all the signs and wonders that have seen
Jesus then says again and this is the second time this is said in this passage ---so this is very important for people to get ---
44 No one is able to come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me attracts and draws him and gives him the desire to come to Me, and [then] I will raise him up [from the dead] at the last day.
I say -------The rest of theses verses speak clearly and plainly for themselves --in my view
All about the Flesh and Blood ----and taking it in
And of course the people have no clue about the spiritual meaning of what Jesus is saying ----to them it probably would be horrifying -------
55 For My flesh is true and genuine food, and My blood is true and genuine drink.
56 He who feeds on My flesh and drinks My blood dwells continually in Me, and I [in like manner dwell continually] in him.
57 Just as the living Father sent Me and I live by (through, because of) the Father, even so whoever continues to feed on Me [whoever takes Me for his food and is nourished by Me] shall [in his turn] live through and because of Me.
58 This is the Bread that came down from heaven. It is not like the manna which our forefathers ate, and yet died; he who takes this Bread for his food shall live forever.
I say ----Major Spiritual understanding needed here with these verses =====
paradox3
Peanuts Fan
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Her
John 6:59-65
www.biblegateway.com
The gospel writer makes it clear that Jesus has been teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. Many of the people who have been listening now depart.
There are complaints that His teachings are hard. Just wait, Jesus seems to say, until the crucifixion and resurrection, if you think this is difficult.
The Spirit gives life and the words Jesus speaks are spirit and life. Yet there are those who don't believe. Jesus knew from the beginning that he would be betrayed.
No one comes to Jesus unless the Father allows it.
Bible Gateway passage: John 6:59-65 - New English Translation
Many Followers Depart - Jesus said these things while he was teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. Then many of his disciples, when they heard these things, said, “This is a difficult saying! Who can understand it?” When Jesus was aware that his disciples were complaining about this, he said...
There are complaints that His teachings are hard. Just wait, Jesus seems to say, until the crucifixion and resurrection, if you think this is difficult.
The Spirit gives life and the words Jesus speaks are spirit and life. Yet there are those who don't believe. Jesus knew from the beginning that he would be betrayed.
No one comes to Jesus unless the Father allows it.
Jesus understood how tough it is. He knew that people would struggle with their hearts and faith wouldn’t be clear. The cool thing is, faith is a gift.John 6:59-65
The gospel writer makes it clear that Jesus has been teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. Many of the people who have been listening now depart.Bible Gateway passage: John 6:59-65 - New English Translation
Many Followers Depart - Jesus said these things while he was teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. Then many of his disciples, when they heard these things, said, “This is a difficult saying! Who can understand it?” When Jesus was aware that his disciples were complaining about this, he said...
There are complaints that His teachings are hard. Just wait, Jesus seems to say, until the crucifixion and resurrection, if you think this is difficult.
The Spirit gives life and the words Jesus speaks are spirit and life. Yet there are those who don't believe. Jesus knew from the beginning that he would be betrayed.
No one comes to Jesus unless the Father allows it.
You've felt this way before. So take a moment, Snoopy. since you’re questioning and ooking for answers, it means God is working in you. He stays with those he calls.
Right now, faith is harder than ever, and Jesus' words don't sit well. Just lean in. What follows is what we were meant for.
Wishing you blessings as you seek Him with courage!
paradox3
Peanuts Fan
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Her
In my mind faith is both a gift and a decision one makes. It's a paradox for sure
What way? I am not feeling any particular thing other than curiosity about this Gospel which can be baffling.
I am seeking understanding more than answers; I would say. But let's not split hairs.
Why would you say faith is harder than ever? Are you speaking to your personal experience?
unsafe
Well-Known Member
Well it depends on who you are implying this listening to Jesus on -----believers or unbelievers -----or both
So the second question can't be answered till which group is involved here is implied by you --as there would be 2 separate answers for your last Question ----one involving unbelievers and one involving Believers ---
So if you can clarify who you speak of here -----your second Question can be answered ----
paradox3
Peanuts Fan
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Her
There are nonbelievers in Jesus certainly. Atheists and members of other world faiths would be two examples. All the same, you might encounter an atheist or agnostic who admires Jesus for his ethical teachings. Muslims, too, who honor Jesus as a prophet
Then we have the believers.
Believers come in several varieties. There are many points on the spectrum of low to high Christology, for example.
Lots of grey areas, no?
Then we have the believers.
Believers come in several varieties. There are many points on the spectrum of low to high Christology, for example.
Lots of grey areas, no?
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Yeah, it's not a binary. UUs acknowledge Jesus' teachings in the sources (well, Canadians do, the US doesn't use the sources anymore) but largely don't see him as more than a teacher or prophet at most. And even among atheists, there's a whole spectrum from "Jesus is a myth concocted by Christians" to "Jesus is a propaganda myth concocted by the Roman Empire" (yes, there's a whole documentary about this one on Tubi that I have so far resisted watching) to "Jesus was a Jewish preacher whose ethical philosophy we can get behind". So there's ones who don't believe he even existed through to others who believe he existed but not in any kind of supernatural status for him.
You can pretty much do a "number line" reflecting how human beings see Jesus with "Jesus did not exist" on one end to "Jesus was the incarnate Son of God come to save the world" on the other, with a large number of points in between. Not infinite, but a large number.
You can pretty much do a "number line" reflecting how human beings see Jesus with "Jesus did not exist" on one end to "Jesus was the incarnate Son of God come to save the world" on the other, with a large number of points in between. Not infinite, but a large number.
unsafe
Well-Known Member
OK paradox3 I see your referring to today"s scripture ---where the Disciples turn and walk away ----should have ready your scripture posting first --------
So these are People who are really not true Disciples ----they are want -a =bee Disciples ----they were not Drawn by the Father to Jesus ----they are self elected Disciples -----
Their hearts are still hardened and their ears are closed to the Spiritual message that Jesus is trying to convey to them ------
This is important to get here as ----this is happening to day in the ordination of want-a=bee Ministers who are not called by God to Preach His Gospel but called themselves to be Ministers of their own Gospels ---cause they will have no Spiritual understanding of God's words ---
Without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in you ----your Ministry is from a human understanding of Scripture ----you will not Preach the Rhema word ---as only the indwelling Holy Spirit can give you that ------
The Greek word for Hard used here is
Strong's Lexicon
skléros: Hard, harsh, difficult, severe
In the biblical context, "skléros" is used to describe the hardness of heart that resists God's will or truth. This reflects a common biblical theme where a hardened heart is seen as a barrier to spiritual understanding and repentance.
Jesus seeing that these Disciples were confused --He didn't back down and treat them with kid gloves ---He challenged them more and confronted them about their lack of understanding
Verses 63-65 Speak for themselves ----
The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life [providing eternal life].
64 ;But [still] there are some of you who do not believe and have faith.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
65 And He was saying, “This is the reason why I have told you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him [that is, unless he is enabled to do so] by the Father.”
I say ------This is the 3rd time this is said ------The Father draws you to Jesus gives you a soft heart to accept the message from the Gospel so the right Faith ---God's Faith---- is inbirthed in you ==which gives you the desire to repent ------If you accept this drawing ----many refuse to accept this drawing and that is one them ----we have free choice to choose -----
The right Faith is available to all who accept God the Fathers drawing to His Son ----who is the Word ----
God's Faith is not hard to get -----one you accept the drawing and have your heart changed by God the Father -----and once you have the right Faith inbirthed in you ---the more your in the Word ---the more your faith strengthens as your trust and reliance on Jesus grows deeper and takes root ------
Your Faith has to be rooted to the Vine -----Jesus is the Vine and it is His Faith that is inbirthed in us
Jesus was effective in discouraging every material and earthly motive for these Disciples to be following Him ----these are False Christians who infiltrate Churches today and like Jesus these people should be exposed and allowed to make their decision to walk away or accept to Follow the Right WAY -----Our Choice to make ----
Jesus always knows who has the Right faith and right heart ----we can't fool Jesus when we try to follow Him -----
Faith rooted in the vine ---Jesus
A little Yeast can ruin the whole Batch ------Prune the Branches of your Church -----
So these are People who are really not true Disciples ----they are want -a =bee Disciples ----they were not Drawn by the Father to Jesus ----they are self elected Disciples -----
Their hearts are still hardened and their ears are closed to the Spiritual message that Jesus is trying to convey to them ------
This is important to get here as ----this is happening to day in the ordination of want-a=bee Ministers who are not called by God to Preach His Gospel but called themselves to be Ministers of their own Gospels ---cause they will have no Spiritual understanding of God's words ---
Without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in you ----your Ministry is from a human understanding of Scripture ----you will not Preach the Rhema word ---as only the indwelling Holy Spirit can give you that ------
Many Disciples Desert Jesus
60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”The Greek word for Hard used here is
Strong's Lexicon
skléros: Hard, harsh, difficult, severe
In the biblical context, "skléros" is used to describe the hardness of heart that resists God's will or truth. This reflects a common biblical theme where a hardened heart is seen as a barrier to spiritual understanding and repentance.
Jesus seeing that these Disciples were confused --He didn't back down and treat them with kid gloves ---He challenged them more and confronted them about their lack of understanding
Verses 63-65 Speak for themselves ----
The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life [providing eternal life].
64 ;But [still] there are some of you who do not believe and have faith.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
65 And He was saying, “This is the reason why I have told you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him [that is, unless he is enabled to do so] by the Father.”
I say ------This is the 3rd time this is said ------The Father draws you to Jesus gives you a soft heart to accept the message from the Gospel so the right Faith ---God's Faith---- is inbirthed in you ==which gives you the desire to repent ------If you accept this drawing ----many refuse to accept this drawing and that is one them ----we have free choice to choose -----
The right Faith is available to all who accept God the Fathers drawing to His Son ----who is the Word ----
God's Faith is not hard to get -----one you accept the drawing and have your heart changed by God the Father -----and once you have the right Faith inbirthed in you ---the more your in the Word ---the more your faith strengthens as your trust and reliance on Jesus grows deeper and takes root ------
Your Faith has to be rooted to the Vine -----Jesus is the Vine and it is His Faith that is inbirthed in us
Jesus was effective in discouraging every material and earthly motive for these Disciples to be following Him ----these are False Christians who infiltrate Churches today and like Jesus these people should be exposed and allowed to make their decision to walk away or accept to Follow the Right WAY -----Our Choice to make ----
Jesus always knows who has the Right faith and right heart ----we can't fool Jesus when we try to follow Him -----
Faith rooted in the vine ---Jesus
A little Yeast can ruin the whole Batch ------Prune the Branches of your Church -----
paradox3
Peanuts Fan
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Her
Agreeing with @Mendalla that belief/ non-belief is not binary.
And just to complicate everything further, there are a number of post-christian ideologies.
I have argued many times that the line gets blurry between (some forms of) progressive and post Christianity.
There are arguments that secular humanism as we know it is a post-christian phenomenon.
Alcoholics Anonymous (now claiming to be spiritual and not religious) is another example. Ditto all the other 12 step spinoffs.
And just to complicate everything further, there are a number of post-christian ideologies.
I have argued many times that the line gets blurry between (some forms of) progressive and post Christianity.
There are arguments that secular humanism as we know it is a post-christian phenomenon.
Alcoholics Anonymous (now claiming to be spiritual and not religious) is another example. Ditto all the other 12 step spinoffs.
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Most definitely is. Much as humanists may hearken to earlier humanist traditions like classical Athens or Renaissance Italy, the humanist movement we have today is post-Christian and to some degree a reaction to Christianity. At least in my experience and as I see it.
Love how curious you are! Curiosity opens the door to wonder, and that's where we connect with Jesus in surprising ways. Keep diving into the Gospel. You're joining generations of people who have sought answers.
When it comes to faith as a gift and a choice, It's a dance between God's grace and our trust. God guides us and gives us moments of clarity, and we decide to follow. The cool thing is that these two parts really help us grow closer to Him.
About faith being harder than ever, I was speaking from my own experience. Faith has always faced challenges no matter the time. The Gospel stays the same, and Jesus' words are constant. As we lean on him, we discover what we're meant to be.
I admire your quest for understanding rather than just having answers. That’s a good approach. Understanding pushes us to look deeper into God and how our lives connect with him. It’s great that God welcomes seekers like you. He meets us right in the middle of our questions. So keep those questions coming!
Wishing you joy on this journey, Snoopy! Stay curious!
paradox3
Peanuts Fan
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Her
It seems like it. Jesus has just been teaching "these things" in the synagogue.
Well in that case, I might have walked away without more explanation, too.
Which sometimes seems like the "wrong carrot on the stick" to encourage people to join Christianity. Do we all seriously want eternal life? Of course throw in a threat of hell and we will want it I suppose.And once again, Christianity sounds like a freakin' zombie movie.(says the guy who once wrote a story about a vampire who interprets the whole drinking blood to get eternal life thing literally).
paradox3
Peanuts Fan
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Her
To this day, many people have strong feelings about communion liturgies and language. I lean traditional myself but not archaic.
unsafe
Well-Known Member
The Spiritual explanation is there -----the problem is they were not Drawn by the Father to be Jesus Disciples in the first place so their hearts are hardened and their minds are seared to the Spiritual message -----and Jesus already knew that they were just pretend Disciples ----He was saying this to get a strong reaction to weed them out so they wouldn't follow Him because all they wanted was for Him to conjure up more free food and be their Physical King
---Jesus was taking the yeast out of His True Batch of True Disciples ----can't blame Him for that ---a small bit of yeast will ruin the whole batch ------
Anyone can say they follow Jesus ----but when the hard preaching comes and they can't understand it they will walk away ----it is like clashing symbols in their ears ----and they just want to get away as fast as they can -----
Just like your Comment here
If your only following Jesus so you won't go to hell ---then your following Jesus with no understanding of the Real Spiritual message ---your following out of Fear --not Faith -and fear comes from Satan not God -----